Top English/Bottom Maths - 11+ Prospects/SWLondon?

[twirlgirl]

I've just had a meeting with DD's Y6 teacher re school applications and 11+. She was also her Y5 teacher, so knows her well.

According to her teacher, DD is well above average in English (top 5 in class) but near the bottom in Maths. It's a high achieving class apparently, so not sure if class position helps much.

They don't do much reasoning (state primary) but her VR is excellent but NVR is weaker.

The teacher's assessment is consistent with our views and the 11+ prep we're doing at home, so I think - more or less - that's how she would perform at 11+.

Her teacher says there's plenty of scope for her to improve in Maths by January exams, and should be able to achieve 50-60% in an exam.

Also, the teacher thinks she would interview well, particularly in creative type interviews.

Has anyone's DC been in a similar position and have they successfully applied to schools such as Emanuel, Ibstock Place, Kingston Grammar and Kew House?

Thanks,
Stressed of SWLondon

I think at KGS maths and VR are important. DD was the opposite- very strong at maths, not so good at English, in particularly comprehensions, but good at VR. She got offers from all the ones you've listed except Kew. I suspect she interviewed well and she had a lot of other interests (none at a high standard!).
I would say that her friends who struggled in maths got less offers ( but still got some) even if they were stronger in English but I think your teacher is right in that maths is probably easier to improve than English.
We were also in a state primary in a pretty bright class.

This is just a general comment as I'm not in your area, but I am in an area with super selective grammar schools and some very selective independents.

From knowing people/friends' children who've been to these sorts of schools but not been great at Maths, I'm not sure it's an ideal experience. Struggling at Maths at secondary level is much more stressful than struggling with English. Also, I've observed that Maths strugglers often don't really get on with Science either.

Maths and Science are the sorts of subjects where you can get left behind and feel quite inferior and out of your depth, if the pace is too fast. This doesn't really apply in the same way if Maths is your strength. You might not get great marks in English but you won't feel like you're behind/struggling to keep up, if that makes sense as it's not a 'building block' type of subject.

I tend to think that highly selective schools suit all-rounders best, then Maths/Science buffs. A more mixed school is better for a humanities/English type, as they can access Maths teaching at the right level for them.

But all that isn't to say she won't get into one of the schools you want. I'd just have a think if it's best for her.

I think I slightly disagree as maths tends to be the one subject that is streamed right from the start. DD is at a selective girls school and there are friends of hers who don't find maths particularly easy but they have smaller 'bottom' sets and get a lot of help from specialised maths teachers that they may not have had in primary schools.
I know a fair few children who didn't really 'get' maths at primary and went on to get good grades at a level - it just suddenly clicked.

Maths is very important at KGS I'm afraid. These schools are so oversubscribed that they can afford to be very picky. I know plenty of DC who were offered places there who were strong in maths and okay in English (you can't be terrible but you can be considerably weaker). They do subject interviews if you are marginal in it.

Emanuel used to be 55% pass mark so that sounds achievable for your DD . It's increasingly popular so maybe it's gone up? Ibstock is probably more rigorous than Kew House (which I don't really know) and I know the interview at Ibstock is v important (before the test I think?) so again, could be to your DD's advantage if she interveiws well.

All they asked DD at Ibstock was what other schools she had applied to and what did her parents do! And she had to talk about a picture. Literally nothing about herself, interests etc etc. And I remember it was on 2nd January- a truly miserable experience all round to be honest!

Kew House is harder to get into that Ibstock due to the sheer numbers coming from their linked preps. Much more interested in the whole pupil I would say but much less places.
Surbiton High?

Hmm, I've done it twice, once with a child good at Maths and once with a child good at English and weaker in Maths. It was a MUCH easier experience with the maths-y child. Having said that, I think you only have to be good enough if you have a compensating strength in English, so I would focus on doing what you need to do to get over the line to tick the "good enough at Maths" box, which probably means an intensive maths blitz.

One tip is to check exactly what the schools are looking for. DC1 was really weak on NVR and we spent ages on trying to improve it or at least get them more familiar with it and in the end not one single school we applied to had a NVR paper. (DC1 was at a prep school who effectively school the whole class on everything). The time best spent was on just powering through the maths books that were very similar to most of the exam questions - the prep school used Schofield & Sims, which seemed pretty useful.

DC1 did enough to get over the line for a good/academic school (we were told his maths result was "respectable"). DC1 was subsequently in the bottom maths set and I have to say it was excellent - small group, good pace, clear teaching, lots of confidence boosting. I'm always boggled by parent who agitate to push their child up a set in Maths, we definitely didn't!

Your DD can pick up her maths very easily by doing a small amount of maths at home every day from anyone of the practice kits you buy in smiths. You can mark it yourself and go through the bits she can't do. DD's maths was weak at that age but she improved considerably as the practice gave her confidence and that gave her a good start at senior school - she just got a 9 in her GCSE.

According to their website Kew had 27 join from their preps last year that would be less that the number moving up from the Ibstock prep so I don't understand how having feeder preps are making it so difficult to get into. I was reading the same stuff 5 years ago when DD started senior school and those results are now out and Kew's performance is still behind the decent Richmond comps. Kew doesn't pretend to be an academic school and has chosen a different and much needed path and people do need to stop pretending otherwise.

I love destination lists like these because they demonstrate that beyond anything else most parents choose a senior school for logistical reasons as the offers/applications and acceptances between the preps in different locations show.

www.kgps.co.uk/about-us/11-results-destination-schools

www.rpps.co.uk/about-us/11-results-destination-schools

Thanks for your helpful replies and great tips. Lots to think about.
I've ordered some Maths books for us to work through together.

I hadn't really considered Surbiton but will have a look. I've heard mixed things about St James Senior Girls School but understand that might be a possibility too.

Maths is going to be the limiting subject so I’d be interested to know just how weak it is. If she’s near the bottom of her class of 30, I suspect it very weak by selective school standards. It would probably make sense to look at places such as Radnor House.

My DD was in the exact same position. Great in English & VR, poor in maths & NVR. We were mainly trying for grammar where English carried more weight. She did get through some selective & super selectives but Maths continues to be a challenge. Especially since other kids seem to fly (as does she in English). I don't think it can be easily overcome & if I were 'choosing' between indies I'd look at a school which was not hugely maths focussed to take away that pressure from the child.

My DS is the opposite to OP as he was in set 1 maths and bottom set English. And pretty awful at English. We applied last yr to two of those on your list and he was accepted at one and rejected by the other. We decided to concentrate on his strengths ie maths and just did a little VR practise, more reading and spelling for English. I would say, although some may disagree, it is easier/more straightforward to improve maths by practice and really understanding the fundamentals. Maths practice papers were very helpful as they highlight weaknesses in the fundamentals so you can go over those and then practice questions again and build confidence.
I do think a couple of those schools put weight on the interview and "fit" to the school. My DS probably interviews quite well.

Sometimes it can also be about performance on the day and getting "good questions" which I think must have happened to us in English!
Best of luck to your DD.

Interestingly, in a very selective school I am involved with, there has been a move away from placing too much reliance on maths in the entrance exam (as thee used to be) and towards English. That's not to say Maths isn't important, but as long as students are above a set level in Maths, they the d exude who to offer to based on English.

Why? Because in this school they found that they had a couple if year groups with super duper mathematicians who were weak at English - and then this group also struggled with the humanities and usually languages too. Of course when I say struggled, it's a relative term, but a number of that cohort wouldn't have wanted to still be doing 3 languages in the 2nd Form or might have needed some extra help to get to the A or Level 7 standard in humanities and English (sort of seen as the minimum to get to in this school) and some would have gained 6s or found choosing languages for GCSE very unappealing.

Today, the school look for a bit more balance. Maths whizzes who can't write very well aren't so popular.

Just a perspective on it, but this kind of knowledge isn't often really public, so as a parent knowing which schools to target is difficult.

And on a personal level, I have a son who is very good at writing based subjects and finds maths quite tricky. To be honest, it was actually okay for him. He found humanities, English and languages fairly easy and excelled in those at GCSE and was in a bottom set for maths but by good teaching managed to get to the A grade level. He never felt confident and certainly wouldn't have chosen A Level maths, and if I remember also found physics hard (not surprisingly) but was able to do really well in his strengths and decently in the areas he found difficult.

For op, it comes down to just how weak her maths is really. Our school likes to set a standard for maths in the entrance exam which the teachers think is good enough for someone to get to an A grade at GCSE (or a 7 now) 5 years later as a minimum. Not everyone will get it in the end but almost all will. I don't know and you probably don't know what your DD is likely to get at GCSE or if that is good enough for the school's she wants to apply for. Tutors who have prepped for certain schools for a number if years and which use similar exams most years, usually have a pretty good sense of the standard needed to pass and they might be able to advise you. It is true that lots of progress can be made between now and January if you work steadily on both skills for a few weeks and then also work through past papers.

All you can do is try and be encouraging to her I suppose.

Regarding interviews, schools do them differently. Some interview all candidates before the exam happens and some only interview those who reach a certain standard in the exam, after its happened.

In the latter, if you don't perform to the minimum standard in the different skills, then you probably won't get to interview, so won't get a chance to impress there. I'd think more children who are all rounders rather than fantastic in one area and weak in the other get to interview, but I suppose a truly amazing talent in one area might impress enough to get someone an interview. I'd also say that is someone is borderline, schools do take a good like at the primary/prep reference and anything like CAT scores which might be available, and sometimes ring the Head of the primary to discuss a child. So it isn't 100% the exam, but the exam certainly counts for an awful lot.

Emanuel is much harder to get into now. I wouldn’t pin your hopes on that. I know several who I would have thought decent all-rounders not get in in the last couple of years. One of mine was middle group in maths in a state primary and ended up with a B at GCSE at an independent - was in bottom set throughout.

A child in a middle set in primary and then getting a B at GCSE in an indie sounds about right.

The bottom sets in Maths in Y5 tend to be kids who struggle to work out simple problems involving time calculations or are wobbly at division. Nevermind tackling complex word problems or having any chance of ever getting an A at GCSE.

Big fan of the schofield and Simms mental maths workbooks. Really focussed practice which highlight areas of weakness. If I remember right, I think there is even an online test to see which level book to start on

Much easier to help a child with maths than english

I agree with the PPs who've said that you need to try and gauge which schools prioritise maths/English.

My two would probably both have got similar scores in SATS-type tests at this stage but one was much better at maths in terms of understanding but very lazy at basic skills so lost marks there whereas the other one got the basics right but struggled with more complicated questions. I'd focus on getting all the basic things as good as you can and ignore if necessary some of the other topics if your DD struggles at them.

I am going to come in from a different perspective. I think you need to work out why there is this discrepancy in her English and Maths.
From my own experience my daughter worked hard for her 11 plus and passed two 11 plus exams in different counties and got 120 for both maths and english in her SATs. But when she started at grammar school she lacked confidence - she was told by the teachers she had no reason to lack confidence but it became such a problem we ended up having her assessed by an educational phsycologist who picked up a big discrepancy between her English and Maths. Basically, the consultant said that it seems that in theory the Maths part of her brain should have developed to the same level as the English part but it didn't. A problem with this is that the Maths part of your brain sits with other skills like Working Memory, Science and language ability, so if the Maths part of your brain has not developed probably you can have problems with these other subjects....and this is a huge problem if you are at a grammar school. I have experiences of two different grammar schools - one still nurturing and caring while being a grammar, the other a hard cold exam factory. If your daughter has problems with Maths now and you want to send her to a grammar school, please make sure its not a school which is an exam factory or she will be miserable for six years. She might fly in her English lessons but she will find the other subjects harder and it would be terrible for her confidence and mental health being under pressure to perform but not being able to.
Can I suggest two things please - see an educational psychologist to determine why she has this discrepancy - is it how her brain has developed or does she have some gaps in learning, problems with her working memory etc.
The second and this is more alternative - I wonder if her brain has not developed in the Maths side because her infant reflexes have not gone dormant. These need to go dormant before your adult reflexes start to work and when they go dormant this triggers the different parts of the brain to develop. I discovered this concept from mumsnet and researched it for my children and there are brushing and other techniques that can be done to trigger this development. I have seen their success and I am so impressed I do recommend it to others.
Below is a link for you to read if you are interested.
I have never used this company but the therapist we do use learnt his brushing technique from them over 25 years ago. Their website contains lots of info on infant reflexes not going dormant and I found their questionnaire helpful. (Please note when I filled in this questionnaire no one contacted me.)
www.inpp.org.uk/child-screening-questionnaire/

I have a DS at one of these schools and he is a whizz at languages and English and struggles with maths. We just sat together and worked our way through the maths questions time and again from now until January until he got through. Having been a mathematician myself - I know that repetition is the key. So I agree it is much easier to better maths than it is to better English and humanities etc. Even now I sit and help with DS maths. It can drive me insane but the reward is when he gets it and we keep building on it - and as you say they stream them. He is middling and I am never going to push for him to move upwards. He will get his gcse maths and fly in some of the other subjects. I wouldn’t let it put you off putting the work in now and going for it. Just have a good varied list of schools - a stretcher or two and some more banker. DS even tried for Kings (also because is so close) and didn’t get in but at least we tried (and we only tried 3 in total by the way so he wasn’t pushed to do many)

I agree re Maths at KGS.
St Catherine's has excellent added value for maths in particular. Surbiton too.
Personally i think it is easier to "fix" maths than English through small classes and decent teaching - she'll get there.

In state primaries with one teacher and 30 in a class and a huge range of abilities it is incredibly easy to get lost in maths.
Primary level English really can be developed through lots of reading which doesn't take a huge input from the teacher (once they can read!).

Thanks all for your replies. Really interesting to hear your experiences. Agree/hope that it should be easier to work on Maths than English.
And I think there is a sense of getting lost in a large class as amidaiwas says.
Fingers crossed and let's see what happens.
We're struggling with "banker" options though - I'm not sure there is such a thing in this area?! Also, we're not Catholic, so I don't think St Catherine's is as an option.

St Catherine's has a Catholic ethos but no restriction on admission. The vast majority of girls are non Catholic.

@amidaiwas thanks, that's good to know. Looking at the website now!