Private schools and parents’ occupation

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A friend is applying for highly competitive private secondary schools for her daughter in SW London. She has to put her occupation (she’s a doctor) on the application form. This really surprised her and me. Is that something that gets taken into account during the selection process?? If not, why do they ask? Thanks.

It is mostly asked for future marketing purposes. Independnet schools want to gauge the groups of people who are applying and spot changing patterns of application so they can target their future marketing. It really is about that.

It is also useful for other things such as having a sense of whether someone might qualify for a bursary (usually ask s if applying for bursary on same form) but schools really arent deciding X isn't a 'suitable' occupation and excluding people. It's assumed that if you apply and get a place and accept it, you can afford it. There are always some people who apply and then get an offer and do t accept as they realise it's too costly or any scholarship offered is too small to make a difference, but schools don't not offer because of an occupation. Sometimes a person with a low earning job applies and grandparents might be paying the fees or there might be other sources of income - that becomes evident at the stage of accepting an offer, not application stage.

If you look at the really top performing and well endowed schools you'll find that as well as extremely rich people there will be people will very modest jobs applying too - they are encouraged not excluded as schools want to encourage social mobility and need to do so to maintain charitable status.

My DC private school also asked for both mine and DH occupation. Previously my DC had been in a state school and it also surprised me. I never actually found out the reason that they asked.

How does knowing the parents occupation help the school “get” the family and why would this be deemed necessary even if it worked? What a load of claptrap 🙄

As I said, it is to gauge patterns of application for future marketing purposes.

Schools also ask for previous school - from this they can gauge if people are already in the private sector and monitor if the ratios of private/state sector applicants are changing year to year.

It's like public sector employers asking for ethnicity when people apply for jobs - that's not to exclude people but to record and monitor the patterns of application from different groups.

For example, I remember being told a number if years ago, whilst working in a successful independent school, that there had been a change in the family demographic applying - there were more and more families with one very high earner applying and a SAHP and less 2-income families. This is gauged from those application forms. I have also known schools comment on there being a decline in those applying from occupations such as medicine and law and an increase in those in the financial sector. It isn't that there is a preference for financial sector families, just recognisition that this has been the trend. Bursars and marketing departments are interested in this stuff - it helps them gauge likely incomes which helps them set fees. It also helps them decide which publications to advertise in and which events/locations to perhaps have a marketing stand at,mid they do those kind of things. It really is about information and knowing the kinds of family in terms of occupation who apply. Knowing that stuff can also gives some indication of the kinds of things which will be important to the families of the current and future children and influence decisions to some degree about extra curricular activities, possibly building development etc. Remember, Independnet education is very much a market and like all markets, information is key and gathering information about customers can be really valuable and can be used in many sophisticated ways by people who are employed specifically for this purpose.

That makes sense.

I work in a private school and our forms ask, no idea why. We'll take anyone regardless of their parents occupation. My son goes to a (different) private school, I'm a school receptionist, not a problem.

@ReasonedCamper my thoughts entirely. Uurgh I hate selective schools.

@BogglesGoggles state schools do not discriminate against religion or location. They represent the entire society and community of where they're located so children attending aren't raised in a bubble of privilege.

wombat this makes perfect sense. As the demographics of school change the expectations and needs of the pupils change. For example a school where most families are professionals - say lawyers / doctors / teachers will have different needs and possibly priorities to schools such as some of the London ones where there are a number of oligarchs or super rick children who need security and where taking the kids on a tube to the national gallery might pose more of a risk than taking the children of the local GP on the tube. That’s a slightly extreme but real example of how the school also needs that awareness

IT seems to be our main occupation at the moment, along with airline pilots, I am sure location plays a big part.

What Wombat days makes sense.

My impression was that schools also like diversity. Some is bought via bursaries, but there is concern that there is a 'missing middle' of academics, doctors, journalists etc. This may be different where Bubbles lives, but our experience was that schools did not mind parents who were scraping together the fees, indeed we were reassured by the prep school head that he saw public sector workers like us as a positive. (And actually not that rare in our area where there were significant problems with local inner city state schools.)

I also suspected that schools liked parents who were likely to stay for the duration. Parents can be economical about their commitment to the UK. Schools with very competitive entry can't be happy when prospective pupils leave the UK before September or in the first term.

Schools are not happy when they rack up fee debt either! Most businesses are careful about who their clients are to a lesser or greater extent. Schools are no different. They don’t want children being asked to leave because the parents owe thousands of £ either! I agree they like DC to stay. That’s why they often give discounts for fees up front. They like financial security and stability as much as any other organisation.

Rich people are not confined to London. They have DC in a variety of big name schools outside London. Frequently boarding schools.

Also it’s total folly to set fees at a level you think parents can afford. All schools set fees according to costs. It’s vital they do that. Nearly every school then wants to raise money from alumni or current parents to pay for development and bursaries. Few look at parental jobs and think yippee : we’ve got a lot of lowly paid street cleaners this year! It’s just not a sustainable business model! However a Doctor isn’t going to get made redundant, has a monthly reliable income and isn’t likely to default. So that’s a job that’s never going to be an issue for anyone.

Bubbles. You may completely disagree, but I suspect schools, like car insurers, have worked out that some occupational groups are lower risk than others. And it is not just about income.

I have been reading MN for a while, and am very aware that there is an awful lot of money outside London. London salaries may be high, but so are costs. And in many areas state education is a very viable, probably preferable, alternative. Plenty of the people we know would not be scrabbling to pay fees if they lived elsewhere. However that does not stop London schools appearing to value hard working, reliable and frugal parents. People like Doctors dont default on payments. They cant afford to.

Just jumping into you discussion OP. I hope its ok and someone can answer. If you are going for a bursary/schlarship do you think it helps or hinders your prospects to have the title Doctor?

Sorry for the typos.

Plenty of the people we know would not be scrabbling to pay fees if they lived elsewhere

This is so true. London day schooks NLCS £6800 per term, Latyner Upper £6900 per term and St Paul’s Girls a whacking great £8629.

Manchester Grammar / grammar school at Leeds (northern equivalents of the London highly selective day schools) £4300 and £4700 per term.

There is a huge difference in affordability. Fees for general professionals in some parts of the country = relatively affordable on 2 good salaries. Same jobs in London with similar salaries completely unaffordable as soon as you add more than one child into the mix. 2 children at St Paul’s = near £52k 2 children at Manchester grammar = circa £25k. It’s easy to see why the profiles have changed

Exactly, and why I think those schools seem to value "missing middle" parents. As a group we tend to be less demanding, relying on the school to educate our children. Or perhaps we are just too busy earning the money to pay the fees!

It has led to a bit of a mismatch at University for DD. She went to private schools so people assume she is "rich". Instead she shops at Lidl, does not buy coffee out, cooks from scratch, and mainly socialises in friends flats or over a single drink in 'Spoons. In part because that is what she is used to. As a result most of her friends are people who live similar lifestyles and are mainly from state schools in the north/midlands. There is quite a clique of posh boarding school girlies whose dads give them plenty of money, but they socialise in quite different circles. We are still struggling to pay off the remains of a large London mortgage (cos we decided we did not want to retire elsewhere) so there is still not much spare cash. We are not alone, and indeed DD tells me that several of her friends hide the fact they went to private school because they dont feel with fit with private school types at University. We also like the sound of DDs friends and are pleased that she does not seem to need to spend in order to support her self-esteem.

Back to OP. I don't think schools particularly prefer rich parents. I think they like parents who value education and who will support their children, without putting them under undue pressure.

We both had to provide our occupations. I am a childminder and my husband is a lorry driver. Never missed a fee for 2 children once. I think there are times when filling out various forms throughout life you need to give this information.

I imagine they are asking for wealth screening and predictive modelling purposes for Fundraising activity. Quite how legal that is at the moment in terms of data regs is arguable - a number of Charities have been fined for doing exactly that but there is a legitimate interest argument. It's a grey area anyway!

Needmoresleep, what your daughter is doing is nothing new and took me straight back to being an Undergrad at a very political University in the late eighties when those of us who'd had been to private schools played down our backgrounds hugely and just wanted our first boyfriend! Being an obviously posh fresher outside the pages of an Evelyn Waugh novel has been incredibly uncool for quite a long time and most 18 year olds just want to blend in!

SJane not really. My guess is that DD is not used to having much disposable income, which is what she has in common with her University friends. Our income was largely swallowed up by mortgage, transport, childcare and school fees. A shabby house, cheap gite holidays, and an elderly car did not bother us. DC knew several children of billionaires. They learned that deprivation comes in many forms: lack of parental attention is one, lack of personal safety is another.

There is a lot of wealth, or more accurately casual spending, on display at University. Kids able to hang out in trendy coffee shops, buy toiletries from places other than Lidl, go out several times a week, buy train tickets at the station rather than in advance, drugs, and so on. Private education or not, this is not DDs background. A much higher proportion of London DC go to private schools. In some boroughs it is over 50%, and so she is not unusual. There are some real education black holes, where housing is cheaper, and so middle income families have a three way calculation on how disposable income is divided between mortgage, school fees or transport. Spend less on one and you are likely to spend more on the others. There is no obvious reason why she should suddenly decide to hang out with the posh boarding school girlies at University, similar to those who used to invade the London party circuit a weekends, when she never mixed with them before.

London private school teachers are in a similar position. If they are lucky the school provides accomodation but it is still a juggling act. I doubt that they prefer the rich kids over grounded pupils with hard working just-about-managing parents.

Worth noting is the advice from an American friend when I was being patronised horribly by a snobby Kensington mom. For many London expats the lifestyle comes with the job. The smart house is rented, the car is leased, the school fees are paid. The job goes, everything goes. I am sure schools realise that public sector job security and (scruffy) house ownership is more substantial.

To be fair though, quite a few of those undergrads not buying their deodorant in Lidl, going out and having nice clothes will be funding that through paid employment. While I’m sure both my niece (at Bath) and nephew (Sussex) feel some injustice that they are less well off than some of their peers (my sister is a teacher and BIL takes little work due to illness), both have part time jobs, work full time during holidays and judging by their social media posting seem to be having rather a nice time! I do also have a gentle ? about boxing people up as ‘posh boarding school girlies’. As an ex posh boarding school girlie, we come in all shapes and forms and viewpoints - the good thing about University and the world of work beyond it is the exposure to the actual people beyond the stereotypes so yes perhaps she should get to know a couple, they may surprise her (or not!). And on that note, I’d also question the whole ‘rich kids over grounded kids’ statement, entirely possible to be both or neither!

OK! However DD is on a course where working is not really feasible so that option is not in the equation. (Which does not mean that some did not arrive with brand new BMWs!) They even had a placements for three weeks before the year started and carried on to the bitter end so less scope for vacation work plus she was shattered.

She is at a University which is much loved by a rather visible and confident section of the ex-boarder population. But as you suggest, she one of those quite happy making friends elsewhere and not meeting stereotypes.

Back to OP. Really dont worry. Schools want people who will pay their fees, but beyond that it does not matter. In London at least.

We filled it out for state school too