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Secondary education

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Original poster

Can school compel a child to choose EBacc GCSE subjects?

94 replies

TwigTheWonderKid · 11/07/2019 14:11

If they can accommodate a child's preferred GCSE options within the existing timetable and the child is adamant they do not wish to study a MFL can the school make them simply because their policy is for as many students as possible to be entered for the EBacc?

OP posts:
LolaSmiles · 12/07/2019 22:59

I feel for MFL teachers on this. Society doesn't seem to value languages and parents/students are more than happy to tell their child to give up at something challenging because it doesn't matter.

Every year I do options MFL is the biggest battle to sell to students.

Schoolquery1 · 12/07/2019 23:07

It was compulsory at my daughter’s school, so yes it very much depends on the school.
Language was her one struggle too, so while she did very well on everything else, her chosen language scraped the minimum required C.

Original poster
TwigTheWonderKid · 12/07/2019 23:08

But why do they resent it leccybill? I speak 4 languages and whenever we go abroad we always learn some basic vocab as a family so it's not like my DS has been brought up believing MFL have no value. However, he has not enjoyed any of his German lessons and has not progressed, in the same way that some kids don't thrive in art or music. You clearly have an interest in, and an aptitude for MFL but how would you have felt if you'd been made to study economics instead even if you didn''t enjoy or "get" it?

OP posts:
leccybill · 12/07/2019 23:23

I can only speak from my own experience of working in small northern towns where kids have as much chance of going to the moon as they do to France, and some have never even been on a train, let alone a plane - so topics which start "Your French exchange partner is talking about climate change" feel more than a bit alien to them.

I can't answer really. I don't "get" maths or enjoy it one bit but I just cracked on with it at school because that's what you did. Resented every minute spent in maths lessons when I'd rather have been performing or reading.

Original poster
TwigTheWonderKid · 12/07/2019 23:34

So that's really putting the cart before the horse isn't it leccybill? What's the point in Nick Gibb banging on about the importance to children's lives of language learning if they have no opportunity nor aspiration to travel outside their own home town and use them?

OP posts:
BubblesBuddy · 12/07/2019 23:35

Lots of DC don’t get core subjects but still are expected to study them. It’s called a broad education. If you can help with MFL, why on earth wouldn’t he take French? For what it’s worth, MFL isn’t just language acquisition. It has a far more important role than that. It means DC understand a bit more about other people. Other cultures, and other ways of doing things. They might even feel we should make an effort to understand other people and, you never know, even work abroad. MFL opens up lots of opportunities and employers tend to think you are quite bright if you carry on with languages: mostly because they haven’t!

Original poster
TwigTheWonderKid · 12/07/2019 23:47

Because he has a burning desire to study History instead, Bubbles which also helps one understand about other people? As does the fact that we live in London and he goes to a very multi-cultural school and has friends from many different cultures and countries. Whilst I personally love speaking other languages he doesn't and I don't necessarily think that a very basic grasp of German is going to give him a massive insight into the rest of the world.

employers tend to think you are quite bright if you carry on with languages: mostly because they haven’t! And why is that a areason to study something you don't enjoy an have no aptitude in?

OP posts:
checkoutno3please · 13/07/2019 14:29

@TwigTheWonderKid

In Letters section of The Times today ' scrapping the EBacc'. Hope it helps in your discussion with school.

Can school compel a child to choose EBacc GCSE subjects?
BubblesBuddy · 13/07/2019 14:44

Both letters are really talking about pushing out creative subjects due to pushing Stem subjects. The Ebacc comments seem linked to this. I don’t think Ebacc was ever about results, it was about broadening education. More in line with expectations at grammar and independent schools.

Actually getting a job is what most people aspire to eventually. MFL grads actually do better than History grads on that front. However I truly believe he should do both and not drop either!

BackInTime · 13/07/2019 19:58

I find that my DCs interest in a particular subject is often dependent on their teacher.

WhyAmIPayingFees · 14/07/2019 09:50

Stand your ground OP! When it came to senior school choices we ruled out schools that did dumb stuff like making Ebacc or RS compulsory. This is all box ticking for one of Gove’s shitty ideas. I do however think MFL is to be encouraged. DS will not get an Ebacc despite doing German and Mandarin as he is not doing Geo Hist or RS, preferring to do Music and Computing. And I will say again Ebacc is irrelevant to uni applications, especially the good ones, where ability and passion for your chosen subject matters above anything else.

probstimeforanewname · 14/07/2019 11:22

Languages are as important as Maths and science in my view, and so should stay as part of the ebacc. I also think a humanity should be compulsory as part of a balanced set of GCSEs. I am not sure that the ebacc is pushing out the creative subjects, it is the fact that so much of the curriculum is taken up with English, Maths and science. STEM is important but not everyone is good at those subjects.

hellsbells99 · 14/07/2019 11:45

My DD was allowed to take subjects that didn’t fulfil the EBac requirements - although initially was advised different. She didn’t want to take either history or geography, as she wanted to take both art and music. They were only allowed 3 choices and she also wanted to do triple science which counted as a choice. It has not been a problem at all (and she is just graduating with a STEM degree).

DragonTrainer3 · 14/07/2019 12:26

In (Y10) DS1s school all the Ebacc subjects are compulsory in the top two streams, but not in the bottom stream. He's in the bottom stream, at least in part because he was so rubbish in French (stands to reason - he has ASD and so has enough trouble communicating socially in English, let alone French).

I do suspect this obsession with languages can be a way of weeding out kids with social communication difficulties, which I have issues with.

He is now taking 10 GCSEs (predicted 7-9 grades in all but 2 - English Language and RE) plus a level 3 maths qualification on top of his maths GCSE.

We were angry with the school (still are) at putting him in the bottom stream based on something that's part of his ASD, but it saves him having to study a subject that he's unlikely to pass, and being (easily) top of every class has been a massive boost to his confidence.

Unless he wants to go to UCL or Oxford, he won't need a language - he wants to study maths or engineering.

DragonTrainer3 · 14/07/2019 12:37

And RE is apparently also compulsory, so if you have to do that as well as the Ebacc subjects (which can be 7 subjects for those doing triple sciences) there really isn't much choice for our kids!

hellsbells99 · 14/07/2019 13:57

DragonTrainer3 - not having a language won’t be a problem for Oxford

Fifthtimelucky · 14/07/2019 15:58

RE isn't in the EBacc but some schools make it compulsory either because they are religious schools or because they take the view that, as they have to teach RS at Key stage 4, they might as well make students take an exam in it.

BertrandRussell · 14/07/2019 16:07

As i’ve just said on another thread, I can’r Imagine not wanting a child of mine who was capable of it *not^ taking the Ebacc subjects, even if the Ebacc didn’t exist.

BertrandRussell · 14/07/2019 16:08

As a point of information, studying Re to year 11 is compulsory in all state schools. Taking the exam isn’t.

TeenTimesTwo · 14/07/2019 16:16

Bertrand I'm not sure it is studying to y11, or studying in KS4.
At our secondary it is mandatory to do the RE short course in y10, but after that RE stops (unless of course you selected it for full GCSE).

I can imagine someone not taking EBacc even if capable.
I can imagine someone doing English, Maths, Science, 2 MFL, RE & Art.
It wouldn't be their fault that the government decided RE wouldn't count as EBacc.

pikapikachu · 14/07/2019 16:16

My older 2 did Ebacc but my youngest will not as he's not picked an MFL. He's dyslexic and has massively struggled so it's pointless continuing. His time will be spent on another GCSE. GCSEs are tough so motivation will wane later - it might as well be in a subject that he enjoys. I am bilingual so understand how another language can be useful but some people are better at other subjects so their time is better spent on that.

There are schools that insist on an MFL but there are ones that don't. Our school is an Outstanding academy comp and I'm pleased that kids can choose. Ebacc is a random government measure that hasn't been followed through with any recognition for the pupil (like a certificate) so not something to get in a tizzy about imo.

pikapikachu · 14/07/2019 16:18

Our school went as far as advising that he didn't take eBacc because if his problems with MFL but said that he could if he wanted.

mogloveseggs · 14/07/2019 16:23

I did french at gcse.
Dd struggles so much with languages. Neither I or the school have forced her to take one as she would be so miserable it would affect her mental health. But it's not just languages, there are other subjects that she absolutely hates and isn't good at and if they were forced upon her I would have to interfere.
I am glad that she has been able to pick her own choices and not be forced into something that she would resent having to do.

KittyMcKitty · 14/07/2019 16:34

I feel it’s a great shame that more emphasis isn’t put on studying languages. It’s compulsory at my dc’s School to take a language. Surely it’s possible to do a Language and History & Geography?

My dc’s School has 2 x English, Maths, triple science & MFL as compulsory plus 3 options (one of my dc chose History and Geography as 2 of their options).

RE isn’t compulsory until year 11 but does have to be taught during secondary (I think KS4). My dc school only teaches RE during year 9 with students doing an HPQ in an ethics type of area of their choice.

BubblesBuddy · 14/07/2019 17:57

I think the argument in the letters quoted was that timetabling forces out arts subjects. This is because DC can choose Maths, 3 Science and Computing and also a second Maths in some schools. This is hardly broad and doesn’t involve much evaluation or critical thinking. Therefore we run the risk of having one dimensional Stem people and that’s where arts and humanities and languages come in. Stem tends to force specialisation very early and there is no need for this but of course parents like to think DC will get excellent results with a narrow curriculum.

I am glad my DDs persevered and didn’t say they hated something to jettison the subject. That’s what DC seem to do now. Use extreme language, mess about and then get what they want.