Can school compel a child to choose EBacc GCSE subjects?

[TwigTheWonderKid]

If they can accommodate a child's preferred GCSE options within the existing timetable and the child is adamant they do not wish to study a MFL can the school make them simply because their policy is for as many students as possible to be entered for the EBacc?

Why is a MFL more valid than History?

I never said it was, its not one or the other. History is an option that a student can choose alongside whatever MFL they decide to study. Children who are able to should learn another language just like the rest of the world does.

But newstart1337 he wants to study both Geography AND History. He speaks a little French and a little Italian which we have learned together as a family and if he suddenly decided his future lay in Germany I have no doubt he would take himself off to some German conversation classes but that is so unlikely and it seems so sad that a blankey policy is preventing him from studyimg what he really loves.

Twig Can he not do both and French and drop something else?

How were options done?
Was it
A) free choice but now he can't have what he chose
B) blocked, and he chose from each block but isn't being allowed (due to numbers?)
C) Constrained free choice (you must pick under these rules)

Schools will always have constraints whether it is to ensure balance, timetabling, or keeping league tables happy. Some constraints are more reasonable than others.

How 'good' is your DS at French? What grade might he expect to get if he tries?

Some schools are not keen on two humanities when one is needed for EBacc. It’s why they insist on a Language. However can his choices not be accommodated with the MFL and having the second humanity as a choice? Or is this absolutely impossible?

Yes, I’m sure languages aid learning and understanding about others. Why is it always MFL DC want to drop? Every GCSE thread is about DC who cannot manage a MFL? Why? Other countries have DC who persevere and it’s considered important. Here it’s not remotely valued by many. Why?

Bubbles

Primary level teaching of MFL is, with exceptions, woeful. This sets our kids to be behind our counterparts before they even get to secondary.
Then because 'the rest of the world' speaks English, it isn't so valued anyway.
We don't have an obvious language to learn so the focus is diluted anyway, and schools teach what they can get teachers for, rather than any other reason.

My 2 DCs are completely opposite. One did 2 MFL for GCSE, continued one afterwards, and has recently done a course in a third.
My second struggles with English SPaG and poor clarity of speech. She has learned next to nothing in 3 years of Secondary French (and 5 years at primary before that).
I helped DD1 a lot, but I'd rather spend time with DD2 on English.

I suspect there is also something to do with there being such a vast choice of films, pop music etc in English there is no need to watch / listen to stuff in other languages.

he wants to study both Geography AND History

Most school have their compulsory subjects and still allow students two subjects of their own choice. Why can't he pick history/geography as one of them? If that's not possible it must be because the school can't accommodate pupils learning 2 humanities.

Its just not reality that a student can pick ten GCSEs they 'love', if he loves History that much surely it is entirely possible to study it outside of school.

I suspect primary teaching of languages has always been pretty woeful, but the anti-MFL feeling I think is new and it seems to be to do with a perception that languages are hard and that good grades are harder to come by than in other subjects (which is, I think, confirmed by the stats). There is more pressure on children to get high grades these days, and they don't want to sacrifice a possible 7/8/9 in another subject for a 4/5/6 in a MFL.

At my bog standard comp in the 1970s, all those doing O levels were expected to do at least one language. I did two, which was by no means unusual. No one cared much about grades in those days and I was pleased with my C for German.

In my day it was sciences that were seen as difficult subjects (especially chemistry and physics) and we were only required to do one science O level. Teaching of science at my primary school was not woeful, it was non existent (except for 'nature study')!

Its just not reality that a student can pick ten GCSEs they 'love',

Was going to post something similar. unless you go to a private school that is happy to timetable whatever and accommodate a class of tiny numbers, most secondary school students have constraints on which GCSEs they can do. DD has just picked GCSEs and ended up having to drop a subject she'd really like to do. I'm sure that's common for many students.

My DD1 has no primary MFL at all. We still viewed MFL at secondary as part of a broad education. Its even more vital now!

I fully understand some DC will struggle but why is it always MFL that’s not pursued? They don’t do computer science at primary but DC pick that up. And ditto business studies, sociology and economics which are taken at GCSE with no primary teaching or even secondary teaching before the course starts. On MN, it’s always MFL that has to go.

Bubbles Because some schools are insisting some pupils do an MFL. They don't insist on the other subjects you list being taken at GCSE.

I agree MFL gives a broad education. Which is why it is offered in KS3. But a creative/performing arts subject would also be broad, but very few schools insist on one of them.

The MFL is insisted on because of league tables and the EBacc measure. In my view it is too late. They need to sort out primary teaching of MFL so everyone is going up to secondary with some level of competence & confidence.

Most school have their compulsory subjects and still allow students two subjects of their own choice. Why can't he pick history/geography as one of them? If that's not possible it must be because the school can't accommodate pupils learning 2 humanities.

He can pick several subjects and I refer you to my original point that his request can be accommodated within the timetable

Its just not reality that a student can pick ten GCSEs they 'love', if he loves History that much surely it is entirely possible to study it outside of school. Yes, althoughof course it would be much easier to learn a langauge outside of school.

Twig How were options done? (See my earlier post 08:11).

The reason I ask is there is a difference between this being sprung on you right at the end of the summer term, and it being clear since Feb that 'all set 1 and 2 pupils must do a language'.

Similarly to understand whether this is being told he 'must do a language' or 'selected options not possible so we've substituted French'

What has he been given then op? If French is one of four outside the usual compulsories, can one of the others give so he can do geog and history?

Interesting points here about MFL; I taught MFL and worked in such an ace department, could be one of the reasons as many as half the cohort picked an MFL for GCSE. But yes, I agree, it's not always so well taught.

I think there is a perception that it's difficult, and in fact the new GCSE, while undoubtedly better than the ridiculous coursework-based one it replaced, is harder, and the way it was introduced has not helped this perception (tho I guess this is true to a greater or lesser extent with other subjects too). The exemplars and actual exams last year and this were certainly tough, and imagine yr 11s tell their yr 9 siblings so. Never mind that grade boundaries might reflect this, the damage is done.

In addition, not only are MFL teachers faced with "but I'm never going to go to France!" (let's hope this isn't true), there is also the undoubted fact that people elsewhere all learn English and are happy to speak it. Of course they learn it, it's the obvious choice and crucial if they want to function on an international planet, or even watch the latest movie. It's less obvious what English speakers should learn, and this fragmentation doesn't help.

All this makes me so sad. I'm just back from a trip to Vienna, I LOVED speaking my German there. I'm sure all the waiters and museum staff has fab English, but they seemed happy to speak German with me, I even had a few jokey chats with people in TL. I just wanted to offer that experience to my pupils. It's very depressing, the unceasing arrogance of those lucky enough to have English as their mother tongue

Sorry Op, a bit off topic I know!

@TeenTimesTwo

In the booklet provided it was worded as "most " pupils study a MFL but no mention of the rationale/criteria for this. Other parts of the booklet say things like "the E.Bacc. may be an important factor for you to consider." which to me implies there is a choice and decision to be made on the part of the student.

We asked at the student options event if there was any possibility of him not doing a MFL and were prepared for the member of the SLT we spoke to to say it was absolutely compulsory. Had that been the case, I would have accepted it, told DS to suck it up, and moved on. However, we were told that if the timetable would allow, it would definitely be a possibility. I was then told a while back that timetabling meant he would have to do the language (again we were a bit disappointed but resigned) but last week when he was finally told his options it included one he hadn't asked for and his form tutor told him he could change it. When he gave him the options blocks and available options within, it became clear that his orginal choices were possible within the timetable.

OK. In that case I can see why you're upset and it is reasonable to query and see what can be done.
Either they've decided your DS should be doing an MFL (is this a comp or some form of selective school?)
Or it is a class size or setting kind of issue.

(By setting I mean they've somehow made Block A History full of 6-9 and Block B History full of 2-5, your son is an 8 but is looking at wanting to join Block B.)

I think what it boils down to is scores on doors. They need to increase the number of kids entering the Ebacc and they've also had the letter from Nick Gibb re uptake of MFL at GCSE. If they let y chidl d othis then I guess it opens the floodgates to other chidlren wanting to follow suit and that 'll scupper their stats. I really couldn't care less about ill-conceived government policy, especially when it thwarts my child's ambitions (whch ironically is pretty much the opposite of what the Ebacc was introduced to do...)

op in my (limited, obviously) experience, if you talk to the school and promise not to shout about it, they may negotiate.

Ds2 has just done GCSEs, pretty much his entire cohort (SEN aside) has to do MFL, I was fine with him doing it, as was he, pretty much, so no worries for us. I have recently discovered that a peer of his did not do it, I think did about a few weeks of German GCSE and mum protested and he was allowed to move to Business. She felt he just wouldn't get a very good grade. I had no idea and I guess she was asked not to go on about it IYSWIM. .

clary I have been in email correspondence with school for the past 3 days about this. After several ambiguous emails in which they flipflopped between telling me it was a timetabling issue and then a requirement. I then got an email from another member of the SLT basically saying "computer says no". I sent a lengthy reply this morning referencing all the school's written materials relating to the option process but am yet to receive a reply. I have no idea which way this is going to go.

He can pick several subjects and I refer you to my original point that his request can be accommodated within the timetable
What evidence do you have for that other than parent/teacher gossip? It is very likely that the costs/class size/logistic problems of allowing one pupil to go outside the option blocks is to much.

He can pick several subjects
You are already very lucky that he can pick 'several' subjects that he loves. Most cant.

it would be much easier to learn a langauge outside of school
Why is it easier to learn a language rather than history outside of school?

I agree with other posters who are sharing the anti-MFL sentiment. There is very much a view that learning a language is pointless or DC could get a higher grade in X with less work.

The problem is that when you start getting 50 students deciding they don't want to do a language because it's hard and my parents say everyone speaks English then schools start looking at narrowing the curriculum, instead of having breadth (and the new Ofsted did rightly trying to promote a broad range of study).

Ultimately running a school offering a broad curriculum to 1000 students doesn't mean everyone gets to study what they want.

This was the same for my dc 8 and 11 years ago respectively.
I'm told it's the same in local state schools now.
If a child is no good at something they really should not have to continue. I would even include the core subjects in this because everybody can't do them and there are alternatives.

Fair enough if they are passable + then core should be compulsory and other subjects offered a choice, within timetabling blocks.

Now they are taking fewer GCSE's recently, it's even more important for them to pass them all.
My older dc took approx 16 GCSE/ BTEC mix and could afford to fail the odd one.

@newstart1337

What evidence do you have for that other than parent/teacher gossip? It is very likely that the costs/class size/logistic problems of allowing one pupil to go outside the option blocks is to much.
That would be the email I received from his form tutor on Wednesday with the list of the subjects available to him in each block .

Why is it easier to learn a language rather than history outside of school?
Because he could easily attend conversation classes in any language he wanted to learn at evening classes. I studied two languages at GCSE level and have gone on to learn several more in my own time. I have similar levels of competence in all of them, and probably much wider vocabulary in those I have learned by myself. It is clearly much easier to independently learn a language than to systematically learn History. Also studying History is about so much more than facts and chronology, isn't it?

How depressing. I knew as soon as I saw the thread title, it would be about wanting to drop MFL.
Try teaching it....talk about demoralising. Worst behaviour issues in the school aswell because most kids just resent even being there.