What would it take to convert both Tiffin schools into community comprehensives?

[Scrapthe11plus]

Have just been through secondary school admissions for the second time.

Both our kids attended a good state primary in KuponT. Neither went through the 11+ rote learning to attempt admittance to the Tiffin schools. We are fortunate to have the option of independent schools which regularly outperform or are on a par with those schools in terms of exam results.

I do however despair at all the parents who seem to go out of their minds with the whole 11 plus thing, and I can't but think it would be better to just have these schools converted into comprehensives that would serve the local area. Those of us in the area know the criticisms these schools face (The rote learning, coaching, hot housing, the absence of certain ethnic groups at the schools, the lack of Kingston pupils attending) and, while not necessarily agreeing with each of these criticisms, isn't there enough evidence to point to the damage just the existence of these schools have in the local area?

My question is simply: what would it take to close these schools down or convert them to comprehensives? I'm not sure anybody knows (I've heard talk of a group of local people petitioning, but also heard that a ballot of school age parents living in the area is actually the trigger to commence with comprehensivisation).

Is this actually a decision for government? Would a Corbyn government close down the super selectives? Or is it down to who controls the borough?

Sorry.. I should have explained that the Tiffin schools are 2 grammar schools (one for girls and one for boys) operating in Kingston-upon-Thames in Greater London. They are hugely divisive, take next to no local pupils, are heavily skewed towards certain demographics, parents spend years hot housing their children to gain a place. One or more of these issues have left many local parents feeling disillusioned and disaffected with secondary schooling. Not every parent has the opportunity to educate their children away from the madness of the 11 plus around here.

hmmm, they have put in measures in recent years to mitigate many of these issues. I think your criticisms are frankly mostly out of date

• the inner priority zone
• the FSM priority
• the outer maximum catchment area
• the move away from NVR and VR to Maths & English
• the 2 stage test

I agree with TeddTess. We did Tiffin Girls successfully for 2018 entry and DD did not have years of rote learning, coaching or hothousing at all! Any of this type of behaviour is very much the choice of the parents rather than necessary behaviour. We chose another school in the end, but I don't think the process for either was particularly awful in any way and DD quite enjoyed the actual exams (the worst thing about Tiffin was the huge queues).

Also, you seem to have sent your children to independent schools. The 11+ for these is no less pressured, really, IMO. And why do you want to take the chance of a selective education away from those who cannot pay for it but do want it? I haven't personally seen an appetite for removing the Tiffin schools from local provision among parents I know. Most see it as a bit of a long shot, but there are plenty who still want to give it a go, hence the huge queues!

You are the exception, not the rule, Epanoui. Many children are tutored and hot-housed for years, doing hundreds upon hundreds of past papers with tutors.

My point was really more the affect it has on children and parents - the whole process turns many into nervous, obsessive wrecks!

And I'll think you'll find many of the parents in the queues would happily have their DC attend the local if it weren't for the manic pressure to attend the selective schools..

Many children are tutored and hot-housed for years, doing hundreds upon hundreds of past papers with tutors

If this is true then the school's admissions policy needs to change. I went to a state grammar school but the top 25% of the local area went and it had a very tight catchment area (we had to move house to get into it, despite only living two miles away). If the schools takes children from outside the local area THAT is the problem, it is focusing on selection over serving the local community and should not for example be taking the top 2% from eg a 20 mile radius.

However, it sounds from the post above that they do have inner and outer catchments so maybe they are fixing/have fixed that?

And it is totally unfair to say you can have a "better" education if your parents have money but not because you are brighter than average. Even with tutoring, if you don't have it you don't have it.

OP, what are you on about? Why are your children in a fee paying school? If you're so against 11+ or anything divisive, you should have sent them to the local comp.
And move out of the MC bubble of Kingston if you're bothered by elitism.

One of my siblings is an independent head in the area. I was with you until you mentioned you were fortunate enough to afford independents. Absolutely no less hot housing for favoured independents in that area so what you are actually advocating is selective schools for those who can pay, but not for anyone else.

And having tight catchments is counterproductive as you'd tighten it to a very expensive area so anyone poorer wouldn't have a chance.

Mine went to the secondaries in K on T and did extremely well. Better than their Tiffin counterparts in my ds's case.

I'm sorry but you lost me when you said that that you have the money to go private and completely sidestep the whole 11+ admissions and state school thing. Would your children be attending Tiffins if it were a comprehensive or would you still have opted for the private school?

I bet you wouldn't be so keen to convert these grammars to comprehensives if you couldn't afford private

No child has been admitted from outside the designated area since they introduced it.

Your comments make little sense, Scrapthe11plus. Most of the parents in the queues do happily send their DC to the local comprehensive as the selective process means that the vast majority do not achieve a high enough mark to attend the school. Some go private but the majority, from my experience, don't. There is no requirement to sit the test. Lots of people I know whose children might very well have had a shot at it did not bother, because they were perfectly happy with whatever their local school was. Children in those local schools do very well. I asked DD if she wanted to try. It was her choice not mine and she was well aware before she did the exams that it's very competitive and that there was a fairly high chance of not getting in.

Of those I know who applied for Tiffin girls or boys in our year (and indeed independent schools), most were pretty unfussed about the process and none were tutored for years on end. A few had a bit of help in the year or 6 months running up to the exams. Maybe you hang out with a different sort of person from me!

parents spend years hot housing their children to gain a place

Another voice saying, that’s not true in all cases. Dd got a Tiffin offer with no tutor (though home prep, which comes to pretty much the same thing), we started prep in Y5 and did a couple of hours a week in term time.

There is clearly a desire for an academically selective school locally - that’s why the queues are so long. So I would imagine any consultation (unless it was rigged in some way) would find that there was strong local demand to retain the Tiffin schools as selective schools, same for the Sutton grammars.

We are fortunate enough to have the option of independent schools which regularly out perform those schools

Well that‘s great for you! But 92% of the population do not have that option so Tiffin is their only academically selective choice. They may well coach their DC to pass the exams. Private school parents do the same when they send their children to preps or pay for tutors.

Tiffin may lack diversity in the ethnicity of its intake. But there are many diversities, and I can assure you that the Tiffin intake is far more diverse than that of local private schools where parents can afford to pay £20000+ pa for their children to be educated - that excludes 90% + of the population.

If you are so concerned about elitism why not send your own DC to a local diverse comp?

I have some sympathy with the argument to scrap ultra selective schools until I find out that the person arguing the case has chosen to a) go private or b) play the religion card instead.

To truly level the playing field, let's:

• scrap all independent schools
• remove religious priority for all schools
• make all schools comprehensive
• avoid postcode selection by making admissions by lottery.

The problem is that parents HATE all these ideas including me - particularly the last because of the pollution created as people drive past the school next door on the way to their allocated school.

Maybe that's exactly why the Tiffin schools have not become comps..

The vast majority of private schools are far less ethnically diverse than Tiffin is

You need to check your facts OP. My elder DD went to Tiffin Girls and was not coached or hot housed. Surprise, surprise most girls got in because they are very clever. It now ONLY takes local girls.

As long as a perceived superior education exists in independent schools, people will aspire for their kids to go to super selectives, though Tiffin Girls is not really that anymore.

I bet you wouldn't be so keen to convert these grammars to comprehensives if you couldn't afford private

This.

OP, you sound bored, moneyed and needing to stir the politics of it all a bit for the sake of a bit of amusement. Actually you sound really really bored, so perhaps a bit or community work or real doing for the community would more some good generally.

Have thought about opening more rather than less grammar schools? Or you doing something about increasing the bursaries funding at your kids' independent school?

No option but to be rather pissed off at people trying to be smart on things that will not ever touch them.

So far, three people whose children have got into Tiffin and all of them say there was no intensive coaching or hothousing involved, just clever kids doing their best.

I think Tiffin is fairly selective even now, @Wolfff! From DD's class only one child who tried got in. Some of those who did not were unarguably really bright children with lots to offer. I am sure they will do well elsewhere, though!

The answer, I assume, is a large amount of ££. What about the parents who want their children to go there. Can the local authority afford it?

Tiffin gets funding under the same formula as any other state school. What do you mean?

I am no supporter of selective education, but I think super selectives have much less impact on the rest of the local division than a fully grammar system.

You don’t get the great divide between ‘high schools’ and grammars, you still get a choice of genuine comprehensives etc.

I can’t afford private education, I have high achieving kids doing very well indeed in comprehensives and i don’t think ‘we must have super selectives as the state alternative to private ‘ makes sense as an argument.

Local provision, not division

I think super selectives have much less impact on the rest of the local provision than a fully grammar system.

Agree with this. It is v clear in local comprehensive schools (local to the Tiffin schools) that they are still genuinely comprehensive and have the full spectrum of ability - and plenty of children who achieve really highly and are clearly being well-supported by their schools to go on to good higher education options where appropriate. And because it is not a deal where everyone takes the exam, there are lots of children who would have had a good shot at the super-selectives who don't apply for whatever reason. Maybe their parents don't know about it, maybe the children don't want to, maybe the parents don't think it would suit their children. As the local comprehensives are mainly very good, it doesn't matter. Parents are hopefully just going for what they genuinely think would suit their children best and possibly also giving their children the choice. At least, that is what we did and what the other parents who I know applied to Tiffin did.