What would it take to convert both Tiffin schools into community comprehensives?

[Scrapthe11plus]

Have just been through secondary school admissions for the second time.

Both our kids attended a good state primary in KuponT. Neither went through the 11+ rote learning to attempt admittance to the Tiffin schools. We are fortunate to have the option of independent schools which regularly outperform or are on a par with those schools in terms of exam results.

I do however despair at all the parents who seem to go out of their minds with the whole 11 plus thing, and I can't but think it would be better to just have these schools converted into comprehensives that would serve the local area. Those of us in the area know the criticisms these schools face (The rote learning, coaching, hot housing, the absence of certain ethnic groups at the schools, the lack of Kingston pupils attending) and, while not necessarily agreeing with each of these criticisms, isn't there enough evidence to point to the damage just the existence of these schools have in the local area?

My question is simply: what would it take to close these schools down or convert them to comprehensives? I'm not sure anybody knows (I've heard talk of a group of local people petitioning, but also heard that a ballot of school age parents living in the area is actually the trigger to commence with comprehensivisation).

Is this actually a decision for government? Would a Corbyn government close down the super selectives? Or is it down to who controls the borough?

I can’t afford private education, I have high achieving kids doing very well indeed in comprehensives and i don’t think ‘we must have super selectives as the state alternative to private ‘ makes sense as an argument.
Couldn't agree more . . My main objection to selective state schools is that they take resources and attention away from those who need them most, and cultivate the "well actually only the high-achievers really count, darling" mentality which is partly responsible, I'm sure, for recent devastation of SEN state support. I'm fairly sure that most high-flying grammar school kids would have done just as brilliantly at a decent comp and quite possibly come out as more decent, sympathetic young people at the end of it (rather than competitive, academic snobs of the type ex-grammar school girl me used to be).
Plus of course the insanity they induce in parents around the 11+. Many families who can't afford it (I know one quite well, thanks to a certain Wandsworth partially super-selective) are induced to squander ridiculous, pointless sums on NVR etc tutors, ruining their DC's final primary-school summer holiday in the process, frequently to no avail.

@marytuda Tiffin schools have the most amazing value added. In my experience of the super selective grammars, they look after their SEN students brilliantly.

A neighbour of mines DD got a place at Tiffin, she went to the local average state primary and was not tutored, just exceptionally bright.

Tiffin fills a need for seriously academic children who cannot have the luxury of private education.

You are BU

My local S London comps fulfil a need for ‘seriously academic children’. Children who go to Oxbridge, children who get places at the King’s Maths School etc.

But as well as supporting the all-rounders they also support, for example, the genius musician and creative writer who wouldn’t get into a grammar due to lower maths skills. The top mathematics student who wouldn’t get into a grammar because of later developing literary interest. The later developing summer born boys who suddenly blossom in Yr 7 or 8 long after the grammar exams are done and dusted.

Lots of sense spoken on here, trouble is none of it really addresses the demented tutoring industry that the demand for these schools nurture. The secret messages at the hairdressers in Ham, the tutors waiting in the bushes outside the exam to catch the children as they come out to get feedback on the questions, the children crammed around the table of the legendary Mrs W or M or whatever in tutoring factories. These may be apocryphal stories but it does reflect the complete insanity that takes over some parents pre 11+ (and I agree that is for ANY selective school) I am all the way through the system now and it does damage self esteem and have long term consequences for children who were subjected to mind numbing practise papers and given such a high bar for the success they perceive they have to achieve for their parents. When as others have said the reality is that the exams, certainly for the most selective private schools, and I hope now for Tiffin, are actually designed to test ability not cramming. Short of Valium in the tea of parents from Year 4 I am not sure what the answer is, aside from long overdue regulation of the tutoring racket.

The other point is that we do indeed have excellent inclusive state comprehensives in the area but they are oversubscribed and too many parents are in a black hole of provision. A lot has been done to improve the availability of places but it is still not a fair system either and drives parents to move, go private or tutor. The 30% of children being educated privately in the area is not all explained by affluence.....

The secret messages at the hairdressers in Ham, the tutors waiting in the bushes outside the exam to catch the children as they come out to get feedback on the questions, the children crammed around the table of the legendary Mrs W or M or whatever in tutoring factories.

You are about 10 years out of date... these people are not even tutoring anymore! The exams are no longer the VR/NVR which to be fair you could tutor someone through if they practice for long and hard enough.

This is like on the boards with questions about current uni applications or A levels and people say "when i did them" like 25 bloody years ago

I am well aware Mrs W or M retired but are you trying to say that the tutoring racket is not alive and kicking? I know from neighbours the secrecy and Chinese whispers around tutoring continues at the school gate, and even with more school places the anxiety that their child won’t get in to a good state school. The local boards and other local forums are still full of people asking to be let in on how to get their child the best tutor. And there is still no regulation..... That parental anxiety and an unregulated industry?

the secrecy and Chinese whispers around tutoring continues at the school gate

We did not experience any of this!

I agree, though, that we don't have enough school places and there are too many black holes - and the numbers each year who don't even get a place in the first round of allocations are shameful.

the secrecy and Chinese whispers around tutoring continues at the school gate
We did not experience any of this!

me neither

at least with the new tests it's a fair test of just maths & english.
no complicated NVR to learn how to do / technique to refine / speed to get through

Actually VR and NVR tests are recognised as a good test of ability in both industry and education. Most private schools have them as an element in their selection process precisely because they can’t be tutored for and it helps build up a whole picture. Graduate employers use them as an online way of sifting applicants. The problem is that you have to constantly develop them so they are not predictable and tutorable, and that is expensive. Where selective Grammar Schools went wrong is that they did not invest in making them unpredictable so tutors could predict question types and come up with strategies for their pupils to answer them.

In fact if Tiffin are using the sort of Maths questions that private schools do to identify the brightest, more tests of logic than the Year 6 Maths curriculum then they are actually more akin to NVR. I would hope so but if those questions are on the Year 6 curriculum then they are tutorable.

This lot whose slick marketing comes up first if you google Tiffin admissions 🤔 certainly think so “The entrance tests are susceptible to change at a moment’s notice, therefore, our course is designed to produce versatile candidates who can adapt easily to the ever-changing exam boards who do their best to produce ‘untutorable’ papers.” www.elevenpluscentre.com/programme/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIhIPW7bKY4wIV2oTVCh0C2w66EAAYASAAEgKuu_D_BwE

Although there are many examples of DC who got into Tiffin schools (and other localish super-selective grammars) without loads of tutoring, I can think of lots of children who have been tutored for years on end.

I think it's almost a given that many good private schools will out-perform event the best grammars; surely that's what parents are paying for?

@NewModelArmyMayhem18

Not that many indies outperform grammar schools. Looking at GSCE results (percentage of grades 7-9), max 6 indies in the country did better than grammars.

@Scrapthe11plus

Are you just bitter as your DC weren't academic enough for the Tiffins so you're paying fees now?

Looking at GSCE results (percentage of grades 7-9), max 6 indies in the country did better than grammars.

This probably isn't a v good measure as lots of independent schools take IGCSE which wouldn't be counted.

@Epanoui IGCSEs are included in the stats.
IGCSEs tend to produce slightly better results so they give indies better stats. Grammars don't tend to do IGCSEs.

Those league tables can be played every which way, state grammars have very different policies on sitting GCSEs than private schools, not just IGCSEs but also the number and and subjects taken, and tables certainly don’t tell you the results that your child will get at a particular school. My DD left a school near the top of the tables for one further down and demonstrably did better at A level - because she got A in a subject that nobody at her old school managed an A in due to poor teaching in that subject. Looking at my DDs peers they were enabled to do as well as they should whether they were in top sets at Waldegrave, Greycourt, at Tiffin or at private schools like Hampton LEH, or ones perceived to be down the private school league tables like KGS or Surbiton. In fact the most spectacular realisation of potential was achieved at Surbiton. And schools way down the tables like St Catherine’s can provide the right nurturing environment for a child who can’t cope with the alpha girl culture at eg /Tiffin (not an institutional problem but one that can happen in any cohort at any school - the one big unknowable) The main thing is to find the school that is right for your child, and not having them tutored to within an inch of their lives to get in is probably the soundest way to do that. Of course the issue is that some parents have more choice than others whether because of money, either to pay to go private or buy a house in the right catchment or religion or a willingness to engage in intensive tutoring........

Are you sure, @JoJoSM2 ? I am looking at the DFE performance tables and they tell me that at all my nearest independent schools 0% of pupils got grade 5+ for English and Maths. It seems unlikely, given that these are some of the top schools in the country! Where did you find your percentagegs of 7-9s?

I do agree heartily about the right school for the right child. What is right for one person really won't be for another.

@Epanoui

Top independent schools are collated here

www.best-schools.co.uk/uk-school-league-tables/list-of-league-tables/top-100-schools-by-gcse/

Also in the Telegraph or he Guardian etc. If you go on their individual websites, the results are broken down by subject and include GCSEs and IGCSES.

I haven't found anywhere that collates grammar school attainment by grades 9-7 so it's more of a case of looking at individual websites. I know that Henrietta Barnett came in at 95% (so sorry, that's behind top 10 indies), a few others were in the 90's and an awful lot in the 80-90% bracket. I don't really know grammars outside London so perhaps there are some super performers that I don't know about.
But definitely a good few state schools beating Winchester or Harrow at top GCSEs.

@Epanoui

I've just found A-level results side by side :)

www.londonpreprep.com/2018/08/a-level-results-2018/

That is really interesting, thanks! It's very London-heavy, isn't it?

YABU. Intelligent children with poor or simply uncaring parents should get every opportunity to get a decent education. Obviously private sector schools offer bursaries but these rarely help the large number of children whose parents aren’t poor but simply don’t give a shit/are socialist nutters.

The A-Level results are for London only but there are top grammars elsewhere in the country too - around Manchester, Birmingham, in the Home Counties etc.

Oh yes, sorry! Did not notice it was a London list!

I do think, though, that perhaps not all parents who opt for an independent whether paying the fees or going the bursary route are going purely or even mainly on results. Obviously lots seem to be, but DD ended up at an independent school and it wasn't because I thought she'd get better results there (though the school is one of those that is regularly v high up the lists and outperforms all grammars). For us it was curriculum. The area that DD is really good at and really likes is so much better provided for in the school she ended up at. Money, obviously. I don't think any state school is able to currently offer good provision in subjects that few will take, unfortunately. It's been that way for some time. My brother left a grammar to go to an independent for A Levels because the grammar did not offer Further Maths - this was a couple of decades ago.

Makes sense. We'll be going independent all through for a number of reasons but I'm glad grammars are there so that parents of very academic children have more choices :)

Yes, me too. If we had not had the independent option, Tiffin would have been an absolute lifeline for my daughter.