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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Ban the Booths

118 replies

PlayNtag · 08/06/2019 07:46

banthebooths.co.uk/

Has anybody's school responded well to petitions against this?

OP posts:
titchy · 08/06/2019 21:42

Child made to sit quietly and work by themselves, the horror

I know right. In a warm safe classroom, supervised, able to go to the loo, have their lunch and a drink. Bet they're made to sit on chairs too. Awful treatment.

What would be interesting would be a test case on another UN article - the right to an education. For those whose education is constantly disrupted by others' poor behaviour.

BeautifulWintersMorning · 08/06/2019 21:54

I wouldn't want my kids' school to get rid of them as I think the behaviour would deteriorate if they didn't have sanctions and the school would be less safe and there would be more disruption and less learning going on. No thanks!

BoneyBackJefferson · 08/06/2019 21:57

LolaSmiles
It's a totally ridiculous campaign led by a handful of consultants who don't teach anymore peddling their own ideological agenda against schools who do thibgs differently to their snake oil magic bullet of choice.

I agree wholeheartedly with this ^

noblegiraffe mentioned paul dix upthread, I quite like his thoughts on the subject but they don't work on there own.

Like all teachers I have read many many books on behaviour and take what works for me out of the materials given.

But what I find so annoying with these consultants is they all claim that they know best, yet only put forward a portion of the solution.

LolaSmiles · 08/06/2019 22:00

Most sensible parents and educationalists have no issue with isolation being part of a behaviour policy. They know that SEND needs to be addressed and accept that's a potential issue if a school doesn't think it's policy through, but they dont have some weird crusade against a behaviour policy.

In my experience the people strongly opposed to it are:

  • behaviour consultants with an ideological agenda and a product to sell
  • teachers who consider themselves to be the 'cool teacher' who claims never to have any behaviour issues in their class (but that's usually because they undermine whole school policy and take the lead from the disruptive kids). Often found in the staff room smugly claiming 'Timmy is never a problem for me... though it really helps if you let him listen to music during class so I put his fave playlist on for us all to listen to'
  • parents of badly behaved students who turn up in the local press talking about how unfair it is their child with a persistent record of defiance was put in isolation for 'forgetting to tuck her shirt in'
Rosieposy4 · 08/06/2019 22:10

So true Lola, especially the cool teacher bit 😳

Redpostbox · 08/06/2019 22:38

I like the booths. It means disruptive children are removed so the rest of the class can get on and do the work, rather than have their whole education blighted by disruptive behaviour.
Children's whole future depends on the education they get at school. Bad behaviour by others jeopardises the quality of the well behaved children's future.

LolaSmiles · 08/06/2019 22:45

On my more irritable days i wonder if there is a special place in hell for 'cool' teachers. Their arrogance is ridiculous because they honestly think they are down with the kids and the kids love them, but then you hear how students talk about them behind their back and it's all ' haha Mr Brown, what a legend, as if you lot have to do work... we just piss around whilst he tells us stories about how he did cocaine at ReadingFest when he was 21... what a lad'. There's no real respect from the disruptive students and all the other students keep everything crossed they don't get him at GCSE.

Meanwhile there's perfectly friendly teachers who are appropriately strict and the students grumble about at times but they are well regarded and students enjoy being taught by them.

WelshMoth · 08/06/2019 23:21

I suspect that there are a few commentators on this thread that have absolutely no idea what working in a school is.

Whilst the issue isn't truly untucked shirts etc, the general "pffft, uniform is only uniform" attitude is a huge contagion if you talk like this in front of your children. You're enabling them to be defiant, and flippant and glib about an essential 'rule'. Where do you draw the line? You are part of the problem.

As far as booths/isolation being inhumane, I challenge you to look compliant, respectful and ready-to-learn pupils in the eye with a shred of fucking humanity when their 4th or 5th lesson for the day is being dominated and disrupted by pupils who simply do not care about learning. Last Friday, I had 4 boys removed for challenging behaviour. One had stolen a girl's phone from her bag and had it stored down his pants. Another has stolen someone else's make-up (stupidly expensive foundation - don't even get me started) and they only admitted it because the site manager came in to search bags. There was chaos. Swearing, laughing, attitude to Classmates, to me. This isn't uncommon. Decent kids are desperate to learn and their learning hours are being totally ruined. Will I recommend those 4 lads for
Isolation? Too bloody right.

I'm all for support and understanding but let's not forget we aren't social workers, counsellors not therapists. We're teachers trying to reach.

I agree with noble - parents at the very least need to sit at the back of the class/turn up and see first hand what their child is like. They then need to take them home. We put up with SO much, it's unreal.

NationalAnthem · 09/06/2019 08:30

Whilst the issue isn't truly untucked shirts etc, the general "pffft, uniform is only uniform" attitude is a huge contagion if you talk like this in front of your children. You're enabling them to be defiant, and flippant and glib about an essential 'rule'. Where do you draw the line? You are part of the problem. I am not part of the problem - my kids wear the stupid uniform - they behave in an exemplary way in class, they are not rude to their teachers, they work hard but I won't bloody lie to them that I think uniform is important. I will tell them that the school thinks it's important - but I have no idea why for example ankle boots in the winter are wrong or why they insist on an untucked summer shirt - I think it's pretty daft and so do my kids - how could we think otherwise, it is stupid! - but they still comply - regardless of what we think! Picking on an untucked shirt is poking the bear - parents of teenagers learn not to focus on silly nonsense like this because it leads to more upset than it was worth - schools should learn to do the same, a child causing disruption in class should be dealt with using booths if necessary but picking on stupid shit like minor uniform infringements is totally unnecessary.

BeautifulWintersMorning · 09/06/2019 09:22

I think it's a bit misleading calling them an isolation "booth" or "isolation chamber" as someone earlier in the thread did. It's a desk with dividers and other kids and a teacher in the same room. It's not some sort of solitary confinement tank.

noblegiraffe · 09/06/2019 10:00

parents of teenagers learn not to focus on silly nonsense like this because it leads to more upset than it was worth

Like teachers of teenagers don’t know anything about dealing with large groups of them.

LolaSmiles · 09/06/2019 10:03

parents of teenagers learn not to focus on silly nonsense like this because it leads to more upset than it was worth - schools should learn to do the same,
Because parenting your own child is totally the same as running an organisation of 1000-2000 teenagers and giving them an education.

General moan - What is it with people thinking their personal opinion based on their child is somehow more insightful and valuable than a whole profession of people trained to do a job?
We get it all the time in schools. I don't tell hospitals how to run or my hairdressers and yet people seem to think that having gone to school themselves they have all this wisdom and simple solutions that thousands of schools just haven't thought of.

Punxsutawney · 09/06/2019 10:04

The booths are not a new thing though are they? I remember looking around oldest Ds's future secondary school back in early 2011 and they had a exclusion room with divider desks. This was a school that had been in the bottom 10 in the country until the new head had arrived. Ds ended up going to this school and he had the most amazing 7 years there. He had undiagnosed dyslexia and their pastoral care and the support they gave him was so good.

Youngest Ds is at our local grammar. The behaviour is dire and getting worse. The school have never really had to worry too much about behaviour but things are changing, consequently they don't have the guidance in place to support the staff. Ds frequently comes home and tells us of what has happened in lessons. Things getting thrown around the room, equipment getting thrown out of windows. This is top set at a grammar school. Not sure why so many at his school feel the need to disrupt others education.

NationalAnthem · 09/06/2019 10:11

Picking on an untucked shirt is silly nonsense - you are asking for trouble, but you know teachers are the experts that always get it right - we see that time and time again. Hmm

woman19 · 09/06/2019 10:14

Interesting that so many of old arguments for corporal punishment are being used to justify this practice.

Until corporal punishment was ruled illegal in state schools in 1986.

Is this 'Booth' practice common in British private schools, or just in state schools?

noblegiraffe · 09/06/2019 10:18

National we pick on the shirt because it’s silly nonsense. A safe boundary for kids to rebel against.

Among other reasons.

noblegiraffe · 09/06/2019 10:20

Woman you are coming across as totally batshit. This ‘booth’ practice is common in many workplaces. Dividers between desks to minimise distractions.

Are you crusading against them too?

herethereandeverywhere · 09/06/2019 10:28

I am comforted when I hear that disruptive and/or dangerous/frightening children (whether down to poor behaviour or an underlying SEN) are being removed from the classroom and corridors. Teachers have an almost impossible job given limited resources.

My education was blighted by being used as some sort of 'therapeutic buffer' for kids who did not or could not learn and instead caused hours of disruption and damage to property and health (but hey, they were in mainstream school in mainstream classes so all is well, yeah? Hmm). This was in the late 80s/early 90s when budgets were similarly squeezed and 'additional help' for such kids was non-existent. It wasn't the kids fault if they had SEN and even the other ones were feral as a result of shit parenting but it sure to hell wasn't my fault either. But me and the other 'good' kids suffered, for years.
Isolation booths might be right for some situations and far too blunt an instrument in others but can we think of the human rights of the kids who just want to learn in safety and relative peace?

BeautifulWintersMorning · 09/06/2019 10:33

Is this 'Booth' practice common in British private schools, or just in state schools?
They wouldn't be needed in a private school as the private school would just turf them out instead.
I agree that building a relationship with your own child is totally different from running a school of hundreds and hundreds of children.

Llareggub · 09/06/2019 10:47

These booths sound a lot like what we used to have in our school library.

I don't think they have this in my son's school, but then I don't think it takes a strict approach to uniform either. My son has ASD and sensory processing issues and primary was wonderful because they were happy for children to wear polo shirts and whatever they wanted on their legs. I worried about senior school. Had the choice between a v strict school and a more relaxed one and he is flourishing. I am pretty sure he would have really struggled with a strict uniform policy.

Back to booths; I'm old now but I'm pretty sure we had "isolation" in my school but I think it mainly involved taking the head's dog for a walk or picking up litter.

BoneyBackJefferson · 09/06/2019 11:40

@woman19

What would you replace this with?

And as posters and yourself have mentioned the 1980s I can safely state that we didn't have isolation booths, the reason being very simple, any child that didn't conform to the norm where either permanently excluded or sent to special schools (both behaviour and SN).

So again what would you put in place of isolation booths?

WelshMoth · 09/06/2019 12:22

Yes, Lola.

WelshMoth · 09/06/2019 12:29

These booths were commonplace in higher educational settings - I spent 4 years in my university library working and revising in this type of setting. Are they draconian too?

Plenty of posters complaining about these, but I don't see a solution being offered.

Any ideas?

BiBabbles · 09/06/2019 13:04

How on earth do other countries cope without uniforms.

By having dress codes that staff also have to enforce. Even in schools with the most relaxed dress codes, particularly with secondary age kids, there will be those that push the limits to ridiculousness. I had a US school in the late '90s having to add not having one's middrift showing and not wearing hats in the classroom without religious or medical reasons to the dress code policy because some students were taking the piss (I was sad at losing my hats, though - even though I did it once - I can agree tube tops are probably not schoolwear). Not having uniforms doesn't change there being issues over student's clothes, just some of the issues.

The link says "For clarity we do not object to removal or separation of children from their classes. The focus of the campaign is on confinement booths (often called 'Isolation' or "Consequence' booths) not desk dividers."

So it isn't about isolation being used as a punishment - which can also be said about detention or sending kids home - it's about this one specific type which I have to admit from the link I'm not entirely getting. Is it a specific type of room kids who are taken out of are put in, and if this is banned, where are those kids to be humanely and intelligently put?

I can see the benefits of tracking isolation and for better funding for helping staff have more options for disruption and help kids get reengaged because those are difficult problems, but I'm not getting what else is meant to be done if a teacher needs a child removed or a punishment is needed between sending a letter home or detention and exclusion/being sent home.

I had isolation/in-school suspension as a kid a few times, each time I had gone well beyond acceptable school behaviour, first time I was 8 and had a meltdown where I went viciously violent, spent the rest of that day talking with a lot of adults, and then spent the next day in a school meeting office by myself, there was no specific room for this at any of the schools I attended. I really can't think what would have been the better option (especially the first one as the next day was a class trip, and can't really take a kid who had been biting and smashing someone's head off the concrete to the zoo and no, having me stay home would not have been better to anyone). It wasn't meant to reengage me or be positive, it was a pausing point where I and everyone else was safe and free of disruptions, and then I could move forward with more put in place. The latter I think needs a lot more funding and help for kids and schools, it was years before I was really back into education fully partially due to lack of resources, and sometimes that pause, that 'you've gone too far and we can't put others at risk for you', is the first step to getting back into things and if not, the other kids and the staff have to be thought of as well.

I'm saying, as a disabled formerly really messed up kid who has had my own work cut out when helping my own kids' needs -- while it would have been better if the schools had better support for kids like me, especially when it came to reengagement as that took years from that meltdown when I was on honor roll to struggling in almost everything to get back into it, I really cannot think what beter options they could have had that didn't involve isolation. I appreciate the research on the issues of social isolation, but it's really easy for the disabled kid to be very socially isolated in the classroom being the one who keeps putting their issues on everyone, and just removing isolation as an option isn't going to change that.

I think this campaign is done with compassion, but not entirely thought through the limited options for students affected and the staff & that the issues of social isolation and reengagement go far beyond this.

BeautifulWintersMorning · 09/06/2019 13:19

"For clarity we do not object to removal or separation of children from their classes. The focus of the campaign is on confinement booths (often called 'Isolation' or "Consequence' booths) not desk dividers."
If it's not desks with dividers can someone provide a link to what they mean and which schools use the "confinement booths" which are not desks with dividers?