Appeal

[Nikkipez]

Hi just wondering if anyone can help? I’m due to go to appeal meeting on the 21st May for my son to get a place in yr 7. He didn’t get a place at our first choice secondary school due to over capacity. I have requested the schools Published Admission Numbers which are
Yr7 181
Yr8 177
Yr9 180
Yr 10 180
Yr 11 163

Each year admissions is 180.
The schools net capacity is 900.
Which looking at the figures I can prove that there is space among the school for my child.
It’s under by 9. 881 pupils.

BUT I have also just received the PAN for their 6th form which is 30.
So then this makes them 11 over their net capacity. 911.

Do you have to include the 6th form pupils??
My brains baffled 😕
This was the only way I thought I was going to have a chance at winning my appeal. Proving that throughout the school there was a place to admit one more pupil. But with the 6th form added they are over, if you know what I mean?

Any help advice would be greatly appreciate

Thanks Nikki x

Nikkipez

Hi just wondering if anyone can help? I’m due to go to appeal meeting on the 21st May for my son to get a place in yr 7. He didn’t get a place at our first choice secondary school due to over capacity. I have requested the schools Published Admission Numbers which are
Yr7 181
Yr8 177
Yr9 180
Yr 10 180
Yr 11 163

Each year admissions is 180.
The schools net capacity is 900.
Which looking at the figures I can prove that there is space among the school for my child.
It’s under by 9. 881 pupils.

BUT I have also just received the PAN for their 6th form which is 30.
So then this makes them 11 over their net capacity. 911.

Do you have to include the 6th form pupils??
My brains baffled 😕
This was the only way I thought I was going to have a chance at winning my appeal. Proving that throughout the school there was a place to admit one more pupil. But with the 6th form added they are over, if you know what I mean?

Any help advice would be greatly appreciate

Thanks Nikki x

If the sixth form is included in the PAN then it's included. You'd need to verify that with the school. In my area the sixth form is a different entity, but I'd be surprised if that was the case with just 30 students.

Looking at the figures though, I can't see your argument being successful. The "spare" places are in the upper years, there's no spare capacity in year 7 and that's what matters for your child as they need to be in the classroom with their own year group.

Do you know how many others are appealing? Unless you have other circumstances I'd say your only chance of success is if there are sufficient children (and space) for an additional class.

The sixth form can be included yes, but you would need the actual number in the current sixth form (years 12 and 13) to understand current numbers not the PAN.

A PAN of 30 would lead to 60 pupils in 6th form which seems low; this is more likely to be the PAN for those admitted from other schools I think, with the actual number on role higher. This may mean that the 6th form is not included in the net capacity as it would mean the school was significantly over net capacity if they are included. You need to check.

Either way, your problem is more that the year you want entry to is already over by 1. The schools case is more likely to focus on why adding another child to this year would be prejudicial to the education of pupils in that year. The fact that not all years are full doesn't make squeezing 32 into classrooms designed for 40 any easier.

Surely if the PAN is 180 then across five years you get 900 so it would be for those 5 years and across the 5 years they have 19 spaces. But none for Y7.
I don't think just picking at the numbers will win an appeal. The panel need to understand why the school needs to exceed the PAN further for your child rather than the other children wanting a place.

Oh and yes as the above poster notes, 5*180 = 900, suggesting the 6 th form
Is not included and they are currently under by 19 overall. But over in year 7, which is your issue.

Isn't it the current year 7 that's over by 1? So even if they were under that wouldn't help as those year 7s will be year 8 when OP's child would be due to start.

Ah yes that'll teach me to do this before coffee! Sorry.

Assuming that is what it is, and it's not the forecast for sept, it shows that the school can cope worth one more in a year because it is doing so now. It's worth probing how they have managed that but it suggests they could do so again.

I hope you've got more than 'I think they have space'.
Have you got reasons why your son will be disadvantaged if he doesn't get let in? (And not just better results)

Indeed, as Teen says, you will need more than just "they can cope with one more", especially if there are multiple appeals.

You need to show the prejudice to him of not attending is greater than the prejudice to the school of admitting another child. Things like specialist clubs or subjects that suit his needs specifically, for example.

Any PAN for the 6th form will be for pupils that are admitted from other schools.
To set the numbers in context the PAN is 180 for every year group, the numbers quoted by OP are actually the numbers in each of the year groups. If the PAN is 180 then the number of pupils in years 7 to 11 could be 900. In most schools any sixth form is usually averaging about 2/3rds of the pupils in a year group, which would suggest 120 in year 12 and 120 in year 13 from the school. Whilst the school can set minimum standards for entering the sixth form, the reality is that pupils already in the school will always be admitted if they meet the minimum standard. Then they are allowing up to another 30 extra pupils from outside the school which then means that the 6th form could be 300 in total.
If years 7 to 11 currently have 881 in them, they are expecting 180 in year 7 in September and have potentially 300 in the 6th form making a total of circa 1200 pupils then the net capacity of 900 is, in my opinion, not the formal net capacity of the whole school. I suspect that the 900 figure is an artificial figure for years 7 to 11. If the school really has a net capacity of 900 and there are more like 1200 pupils in the school then they must be very crowded.
However the pupil number in years 7 to 11 do not support that there are 1200 pupils, so again I suspect that the net capacity figure is not an official figure. Try asking for the formal net capacity for the school in terms of the maximum net capacity, the minimum capacity and the agreed capacity and see what answers you get then.
The maximum capacity is the worked out figure based on measuring all appropriate rooms as to what is a reasonable maximum figure in terms of pupils in the school (including 6th form). The minimum figure should be 90% of the maximum figure. The agreed net capacity can be any figure between the minimum and maximum which makes sense in agreeing a PAN figure.

If it is a case of ‘there is space for one more’ surely it would go to the next person on the waiting list according to the admissions criteria?

The potential to fit one more in becomes relevant when the appeal panel has to weigh up the relative disadvantages to both school and pupil . “This pupil needs a school where there is an after-school Mandarin Club / specialist LaCrosse coach / offers 2 MFL at GCSE / specialist dyslexia support v This school will have to make staffing or space adjustments to fit more in the classrooms”.

If it is a case of ‘there is space for one more’ surely it would go to the next person on the waiting list according to the admissions criteria

Not in an appeal situation. If the appeal panel decides that the school can handle an additional pupil without any issues even though it is full up to PAN they must ignore the waiting list and award the place to whichever appellant has the best case. The waiting list only comes into play if the school is below PAN.

Being under PAN in others years doesn't help your appeal though, OP. It is the PAN for the year you want that matters.

You need to show that the disadvantage to your child is greater than the disadvantage to the school of taking an extra pupil. Saying they have space in others years does not show that. Your child is not in those years.

Being under PAN in others years doesn't help your appeal though

Yes it does.

If the school was under PAN in the year the OP wants they would have to admit her child and there would be no need for an appeal. The school is always full to PAN in the year in question when there is an appeal. Being under PAN in other years means the school is under capacity, which makes it harder for them to claim they are so full that they can't cope with any more pupils.

Yes, appeals mean it is over PAN already.

It doesn't magically make more workstations for pupils in that class or make extra time for the teacher to mark work. Very easy for the school to say it would disadvantage them.

Have you seen the school's case yet, OP?

Yes, in the vast majority of cases the appeal panel will decide that there is some prejudice to the school from having to admit additional pupils. The appellant needs to minimise that. Things like the school being under capacity help. But it is rare for an appeal panel to decide that there would be no prejudice at all from admitting another pupil.

In my observations of schools near here then going over by 1 might indicate that that one student had a really good case or was an excepted student. Schools who take a number of pupils on appeal tend to add one child to each class so in a six class entry they might take six students. I am sure that isn't the case everywhere but it might mean that it is hard to win an appeal unless they are not particularly oversubscribed. Even if you can convince them that the school can take more, there is no guarantee that it will be your child whom they will take. I wouldn't read too much into the numbers and concentrate on the reasons why that school is the best school for your child.

You need to do both. It isn't either/or. You need to convince the appeal panel that the disadvantage to the school of taking an additional pupil is low as that makes it easier to win. You also need to convince them that your child will be disadvantaged if not admitted to this school.

That does though depend on the appeal, some schools have a group stage 1 in which the amount of flexibility in the numbers is addressed and then an individual stage 2 in which the need for that child is addressed. In a group stage 1 only one person might raise the issue but any of the children applying might benefit. My understanding is that it should also be the same when the stage 1 and 2 are combined in individual appeals. So Mrs A might raise an issue which demonstrates that there is potentially room in the school for two more children, but on balance the appeal panel decide that child C and E have demonstrated the most need for those places, so although Mrs A raised it, her child will not benefit. That is why although the issue of numbers should be raised, the OP might do better to find further ways which demonstrate why her child should be offered a place at that particular school, rather than pinning their hopes on a numbers game, especially if there is a group stage 1 or there are likely to be lots of appeals.

“The waiting list only comes into play if the school is below PAN.”

Yes, but the OP is claiming that the school is below PAN. Though not for the year in question. So thereby, it seems, lies the difference.

No, that doesn't make any difference. The waiting list comes into play if the school is below PAN in the year for which the OP wants a place. At appeal it plays no part whatsoever. If the appeal panel decide the school can cope with additional pupils they are required to admit the appellants with the best cases, NOT take people off the waiting list or use the waiting list criteria to decide which appeals should succeed.

I’ve received the schools “case” today. They are saying that the schools admissions limit has been reached. And that the school is at full capacity which my findings argue they are not. They are saying staffing is an ongoing issue with recruitment of staff remaining to be a challenge. And that they have a high proportion of PP and SEN students in the school (almost a third or above in most year groups) and that the SEND kids need a high level of support which puts a strain on teachers TAs and pastoral care.
They have limited funding.

So what’s your response?
Given all their concerns, why should they also take your child?

That's a pretty standard argument. All schools will say there are funding and staffing issues (because there are!)

Looking at your numbers again, assuming they are current and not for Sept, they will be losing a year of 163 and gaining one of 180 (at least, have they said what the current number of forecast year 7s is?) so they will have 898 pupils on roll in 7-11 in sept.

Good questions to ask would be how have they managed with the 181 year they already have, because this would suggest they can do it if they have to. You need to persuade a panel that the prejudice to them of doing so is less than the prejudice to your child of attending.

Is it acceptable to pick holes in the schools case. They have said recruiting staff is an issue but on the school website it says that 6 staff left and they have welcomed 10 new staff?
They also talk of high proportion of PP and SEN children but my son is neither?