Appeal

[Nikkipez]

Hi just wondering if anyone can help? I’m due to go to appeal meeting on the 21st May for my son to get a place in yr 7. He didn’t get a place at our first choice secondary school due to over capacity. I have requested the schools Published Admission Numbers which are
Yr7 181
Yr8 177
Yr9 180
Yr 10 180
Yr 11 163

Each year admissions is 180.
The schools net capacity is 900.
Which looking at the figures I can prove that there is space among the school for my child.
It’s under by 9. 881 pupils.

BUT I have also just received the PAN for their 6th form which is 30.
So then this makes them 11 over their net capacity. 911.

Do you have to include the 6th form pupils??
My brains baffled 😕
This was the only way I thought I was going to have a chance at winning my appeal. Proving that throughout the school there was a place to admit one more pupil. But with the 6th form added they are over, if you know what I mean?

Any help advice would be greatly appreciate

Thanks Nikki x

The first point is irrelevant. You don't know what went into recruiting the new staff. Bringing up points like that deflect from any valid points.

The high proportion of PP and SEN students means there is a far higher burden on resources. The school are demonstrating that they've already got more than enough to deal with and cannot take any further students.

I'm waiting for school appeal date. The schools capacity is 680 with current numbers 392 , so why are we on waiting list if they are able to accommodate more ?

It is not the overall number that is the key issue but the number admitted to the year group in year 7. If that is at PAN or above then the school is able to make a case that they are full. Obviously the fact that there appears to be lots of space across the school (392 when 680 can be accommodated is your latest figures) does somewhat negate the school complaining to much about overcrowding but they can presumably show they are full in year 7.
I am somewhat confused by the different numbers that you have posted for having been admitted to year 7, what the PAN is and what the numbers are across the school and the formal net capacity of the school. You do need to get these confirmed as they are the heart of their case.

Thank you! I have spoken to the school about admission numbers and all they said was to refer to this years admission policy on school website. It only tells me that last year the pan was 90 and they accepted 108.

Sorry, I have kind of a general question but it is prompted by one of the points the school made so hopefully it won't derail your thread.

If a school has children with SEN with 1-1 support in the class, does the physical space of the extra adult feature in classroom size calculations?

Good luck for your appeal meeting today OP.

If a school has children with SEN with 1-1 support in the class, does the physical space of the extra adult feature in classroom size calculations

Not for the purposes of calculating the school's capacity, no.

shouldwestayorshouldwego
I agree. The idea of 'but you want over PAN last year so this year you should take my child' always confuses me as an argument given that nobody but the school knows why the school went over.

Some year groups I've known have gone 3 or 4 over PAN but that was due to children in care moving care placements and having the entitlement to attend a strong school. It would make no sense for Mrs Blogs two years later to say 'yes but 2 years ago you were 3 over and managed' because 'managed' meant sitting 33 students in a room only big enough for 30 comfortably, limits on access to tools in practical lessons etc. We got by, but it's not a precedent to set. Say we took Mrs Blogs' child, does someone the year after then argue we should be 5 or 6 over using the same flawed logic?

Each appeal is a different appeal and the appeal panel is asked to decide an outcome on what evidence is presented at the appeal and in the written papers. As such the simple fact that the school admitted 108 on a PAN of 90 should not be given any weight into consideration by the panel. However the panel needs to understand the background to the admission of 108 pupils. If that was because an appeal panel admitted the 18 extra pupils then the panel should not give any weight to that decision other than wondering why they did that. An example would be the previous panel having discovered a serious failure in the admission process and the 18 were admitted because they should have been offered a place. The panel would definitely not in those circumstances give any weight to the numbers admitted.
However if the school made a decision themselves to admit the extra 18 then the panel needs to establish why the school did that and the obvious assumption must be that the school appears to believe that if they can run with 108 in the previous year group, why not 108 in the year group the appeals are for. The strength of the school's argument not to take above PAN this year will decide how much weight the panel will give to the numbers in the previous cohort.
As well as the simple numbers argument the panel needs to balance other aspects such as the size of classrooms, the narrowness or otherwise of corridors, the number of reportable accidents. To take up a previous comment about whether the presence of a TA working as a 1 to 1 is given consideration in the net capacity, the answer given by PRH is correct, it is not taken into consideration. However if the panel was given information that there were 30 in the class but there were 3 pupils each with 1 to 1 support in the class then that is evidence that has to be considered in deciding whether another pupil can be supported in that particular class, given how much space the 3 TAs will be taking up.

Well we had our appeal on Tuesday. I got so emotional and cried all the way through. I’d practiced and practiced my case but when I got in there my emotions and nerves just took over 😞 I did get all my points/reasons across I think!! But wish I hadnt have got so upset. My heart was racing and I got so overwhelmed. I know I could have done better 😩 But the appeal panel couldn’t have been more lovely. I really thought it was going to be horrendous and I was going to get interrogated but it couldn’t have been more different. They let me take a breath and gather my self and didn’t rush me at all. We found out we missed the distance criteria by 5inches!!!!! 😳 Even the appeals officer laughed and shook his head. Talking to my friends who also appealed they seemed to of asked them lots of questions but they didn’t with us. I dunno if this is a good thing or not?! And I know every case is completely different. I did what I could but I’m really not holding out much hope on us being successful. I know how hard it is to win a school appeal. Just gotta wait 5 days now for the decision. I’m so glad the appeal is over but I think this bit is the worst bit. The waiting is killing me. I’m literally stalking my postman 😆 Before the appeal when I rang admissions we were 5th on the waiting list and when I rang today we are 6th. I know there can be a lot of movement with the waiting list so I suppose I’ve just gotta sit tight pray for a miracle!! Never in a million years did I think it would affect us all the way it is has.

Appeals are all well and good but larger classes do disadvantage all pupils. My ds primary class ended up way too large cos the class above was small. Horrendous in Y5 and 6 especially

As I’ve said we had our appeal on Tuesday. We were told that they would write to us within 5 school days with the decision. I’ve found out today that someone that appealed for the our same school has had a phone call saying they were successful & won the appeal and got a place. We’ve had no phone call. So I’m definitely thinking we didn’t win. Did any one else receive a letter or phone call? Thanks

My LEA doesn't call, too much scope for confusions and upset. They send a quick letter immediately saying yes or no, and a follow up a few days later with a full explanation of how the decision was reached.

Just calling the successful ones sounds an odd approach. Are you sure the story is correct?

Yes. She rang me straight after she received the phone call. Asked if I’d heard too. But I’ve had nothing at all.

I had an email that I had to reply to, to confirm that it had been received (we were unsuccessful).

I did find the whole thing stressful as well although the actual panel members were lovely. Hope you are doing OK, OP.

Just exhausted from it all. It’s literally taken over my life since 1st March. My anxiety is through the roof and I’m fed up. Just need to know one way or the other. It’s affected me more than my son now!! 🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️

We got a letter (successful btw) and it was 13 calendar days / 9 School days later. There was a whole week of appeals for this particular school. I have never heard of phone call re outcome.
Didn't they inform you of how you would be informed at the individual hearing?

Yes they said within 5 working days by letter. Which would be Tuesday 28th. But knowing they rang my friend I’m not holding much hope.

We got a letter, within 2 days. But we knew our case was flimsy and we were unlikely to be successful.

Were your friend's grounds for appeal similar to yours?

Do you know where you are on the waiting list?

What was your friends reason for appealing? Was it the same points as you? X

Just received the appeal letter..
Unsuccessful 😢

Sorry to hear that :( what was the difference in the appeal between you and your friend? X

Sorry it didn't go the way you'd hoped OP As I said, I found it all pretty stressful too and I didn't have high hopes of success.

Put your child on the waiting list as well.

I think it is very wrong to give some people the result of their appeal before the rest of the appellants. Occasionally, when there have been mixed or in-year appeals, we have asked the clerk to ring a successful appellant, especially if they have another another appeal in the pipeline, but that doesn't happen very often.

Do you know where you are on the waiting list OP?
FWIW DD started in Sept at one school but got offered another - AMAZING school from the waiting list in Jan, which she now attends. She'd been 17th on the list. They rang us to offer the school that had been her number one choice two weeks later. People move and change a lot.