Flight paths in secondary are nonsense and demotivating for pupils SAY OFSTED

[noblegiraffe]

Ofsted finally saying what I’ve been banging on about for years. Flight paths are bollocks and schools shouldn’t be producing them.

So if your school does, hopefully Ofsted not being keen might make them reconsider!

Are you seriously suggesting that teachers can't measure and assess effort?

Yep, pig, exactly that.

If your child was working really realy hard and their results in classwork and homework was excleent and/or improving : and then you received a gradesheet thats aid they would eitehr make NO progress or GO BACKWARDS, are you really saying you would be OK with that?

Baffling.

Likewise, the absolute shirkers who the data says will go on to achieve highly or as expected when attendance and effort suggest they really won't : just as bizarre.

Judgements do vary from teacher to teacher, from subject to subject and from school to school, Crisp. I’m not sure why you think they don’t. There are no standards to judge these ‘currently working at GCSE grades’ against. GCSEs aren’t awarded a grade by meeting a certain standard. They’re awarded a grade by being in a certain percentage of the cohort. And topic tests and the like aren’t marked against the national picture.

Because the data always suggest what the average student will do within a range of achievement. Clearly you understand that. But there are always outliers. And these systems do not identify who they are : to the teachers, the parents, or the children.

And, yes, thank you. Generally, I can assess effort. As can the students if one asks them.

Because people who are seriously good at stuff make it appear effortless. Yet it is only so because of their love and enjoyment for it, they don't measure the time spent thinking, planning and doing said subject. Often people who struggle have to make a huge amount of effort just to get started or spend 5 minutes concentrating on something which they find incredibly taxing.

Judgements do vary from teacher to teacher, from subject to subject and from school to school, Crisp. I’m not sure why you think they don’t. There are no standards to judge these ‘currently working at GCSE grades’ against. GCSEs aren’t awarded a grade by meeting a certain standard. They’re awarded a grade by being in a certain percentage of the cohort. And topic tests and the like aren’t marked against the national picture.

I fully appreciated appreciate this, noble. But relatively there is comparatively more standardisation when similar methodology is used than when it isn't and individual professional judgement is all that is relied upon. Even a flawed attempt at standardisation means much less opaqueness than relying upon so called professional judgement.

I find it astonishing that you have said people are being patronising. You have literally MNsplained your way through this thread.

make it appear effortless is not making no effort. Low effort is quite the opposite of that. We are talking about students who yawn, put their head on the desk, do no homework, write nothing in lessons. That is low effort.

There is plentiful research which links effort to improved achievement. Again, there will be outliers.

My own DSs form pretty good examples.

Why do you think that different teachers or different schools are using the same methodology for flight paths?

Look at the examples in the OP, they’re not even using the same flight paths!

If your child was working really realy hard and their results in classwork and homework was excleent and/or improving : and then you received a gradesheet thats aid they would eitehr make NO progress or GO BACKWARDS, are you really saying you would be OK with that?

No. But this information would make me ask questions. Which would result in more clear information regarding how my child is doing.

If I did not receive this information I would be none the wiser.

There will be a lot of judgement in any reporting that is not based on standardised testing. I'm not advocating for the use of arbitrary performance scales any more than I am the use of flight paths. Reporting attainment up to year 10 is hugely problematic, and the issue is with reporting a single attainment value, not the data I collect.

Why do you think that different teachers or different schools are using the same methodology for flight paths?

If you have a methodology you can compare it. If there is no methodology stated, apart from 'professional judgment', there exists nothing to compare. You can't exactly ask each teacher for a CV detailing their experience...

If you have a methodology you can compare it.

Teachers make stuff up. That’s the methodology.

We are talking about students who yawn, put their head on the desk, do no homework, write nothing in lessons

That could be due to having to overcome some quite serious barriers to learning. The yawning pupil, who does no homework is struggling. Have you never found a subject so difficult and unintelligible you can't even begin to access the sense of what is been said never mind find it interesting?

I once had a lecturer who spoke in complete riddles. I struggled to stay awake. It wasn't the subject it was the way he spoke. Had me flabbergasted. I ended up spending a lot of the time reading up on it. Huge effort to achieve in that subject..,

Teachers make stuff up. That’s the methodology

Evidently. And demand respect for it....

If there is no methodology stated, apart from 'professional judgment', there exists nothing to compare

Works quite well in Finland, using professional judgement. I suppose that this is a side effect of England and Wales’ general mistrust of teacher judgement and obsession with ‘how is my child doing compared to others?’. It’ll have to take OFSTED’s comments to even start to make a positive difference.

Or, shock horror, The yawning pupil, who does no homework is up all night gaming/on social media
Or The yawning pupil, who does no homework is lazy
Or The yawning pupil, who does no homework has given up because their target grade is demoralising/unachievable.
Or The yawning pupil, who does no homework has been up all night because they have a new baby brother/sister.
And on and on and on.

I suppose that this is a side effect of England and Wales’ general mistrust of teacher judgement and obsession with ‘how is my child doing compared to others?’. It’ll have to take OFSTED’s comments to even start to make a positive difference.

And why do you think people mistrust teachers? How are we supposed to trust people who pretty much don't think parents should be told about their child's progress. Who just want actual carte blanche to actually make it up, as they see fit, using 'professional judgement' without any attempt at standardisation or transparency?

What would you think of a GP who didn't look at your medical history and also refused to report in any standardised way because they thought all the standard tests were flawed? They just offered diagnosis without referring to any testing at all...

Good of coolcrispsnow to point out to experienced teachers that students who don’t engage (in a variety of ways) might be encountering barriers to learning. I’m sure it never occurred to any of them them that this might be the case.

And on and on and on.

Admit it you just don't know why a pupil is actually yawning without having any actual evidence.

cool the teachers at your DC school who gave you current GCSE grades in y8 were making it up. There was no standardisation. They probably spent only a few seconds’ thought before entering the grade on the system that you then took as something meaningful and validated.

Teachers don’t like doing this and don’t want to be forced to do this. Ofsted are now saying that it’s bollocks too.

I’m sure it never occurred to any of them them that this might be the case.

You'd be surprised.

You'd also probably be surprised to know that I have a BA Hons in English and Education and have taught for a number of years. Including numerous children with quite severe SENs. But having a child with a Statement of SEN was not really conducive to holding down a career. Especially factoring in illegal exclusion in the form of an extended part time timetable...

Admit it you just don't know why a pupil is actually yawning without having any actual evidence.

Eh? It was you who blindly stated yawning was only because they had SEND needs. I was pointing out there could be many reasons and therefore, a rigid flight path or “methodology” as you put it, is actually quite damaging. Children are not a one size fits all. They are all unique and deserve better.

You missed the words 'could be', Ms.

How are we supposed to trust people who pretty much don't think parents should be told about their child's progress.

And this just proves that you are spoiling for a fight, when this is not what this thread is about at all and has not been said once. Go take your personal vendetta elsewhere. Let us, who are still in education, do what we can to try and make a difference to our pupils. And I say that a parent as well.