Kingsdale waiting list

[sara75]

Hello everyone, my daughter is 59th on waiting list for our first choice, Kingsdale, on the Banding list and 83rd on the scholarship waiting list. How likely do you think she is in getting a place? They apparently had 3000 applications this year and their intake is advertised on the website as 240...

maz I didn't say Black, I said non-white-Brit which means anyone, well, non-white British ethnically . . . Which includes Poles, Irish, Asians and Latin Americans of whatever skin colour . . . at my DC's school for instance, if you look at a class photo you'd see a fair percentage of light skins . . . . But actual 100 % white-British-heritage pupils are in a clear minority. I very much doubt that is true of Kingsdale.
I don't know the schools you mention personally and clearly they are (like Kingsdale) located south towards the suburbs from where I am; also highly sought after no doubt so dominated by, um, parents who can afford to live nearby.
I am thinking of the schools around where I live, attended by kids from our primary school, which I looked at and included on our application as a back up. They are literally 95% if not virtually 100% non-white. And that is by no means exceptional for a non-fashionable (but quite possibly excellent) inner London school.

You see, KateandSam's post sums up what confuses me.

Her child was no. 100 on the waiting list but got a place before Y7 started.

My dd's friend was somewhere in the 60s on allocations day, had moved up to no. 4 by the last day of term in Y6 ... but didn't get a place until a whole year later at the start of Y8.

So fishy ...

@sara75 the usual advice is to accept the school you have been offered and then go on waiting lists for other schools that you would prefer

Bibbity - it mIght be because there are 3 bands (you fall into one of these from the test you do when you apply). and scholarship band.
So I guess if they need to fill a place from middle band as they are meant to take equal numbers from each band. So depending on what band needs to b filled is who is selected.

So complicated! ....:((((

iwant is correct... there are basically 4 waiting lists - one for each band and one for scholarship students.

This is all documented in the oversubscription criteria, so not sure why people are confused.

Dunraven and Norwood schools are hardly in fashionable / expensive (relatively speaking) suburbs! And I would say that at both white families of British heritage are in the minority.

I know several families with kids at Kingsdale - it was on our list, too as the 3rd furthest away behind 2 more local schools. They are happy, it is a good comp. There are also other good comps in the area. I can only imagine that the hype and bumping up of applications is to provide evidence to the investment into its expansion - introducing a sixth form, expanding the intake in each year.

And it is a shrewd move. There is nothing like a whiff of competition to get the highly competitive middle class families in the area chasing a place, especially with a scholarship attached.

Also, until recently there has been a shortage of co-ed places in the area, so many many families closer to Harris Boys or Girls respectively or Sydenham Girls or Hilly Fields Boys would try for a lottery place at Kingsdale. And anyone who is not 100% happy with their own closest schools can try for a lottery place, so what's to lose?

Some Kingsdale students I know have moved to Charter or Dunraven for sixth form.

I can't really see why they can't do a random pick from the whole waiting list for every place - I am pretty sure it is done by computer rather than the Chair of Governors or a local celebrity like Jo Brand, perhaps, popping down to pick names out of a hat.

I'd still like to know the opinion of an admissions legal expert like @prh47bridge on their maintaining one numbered waiting list (for each category) rather than re-drawing the lottery each time.

Yes, I know about the banding and the scholarship band. I just don't accept that there can be such a variation between bands in the speed of moving up the waiting lists.

I think their admissions process is confusing to many people but at least they have a bit more about it on their website now - 5 years ago it was literally all smoke and mirrors.

Imo, the weirdest thing is that they are allowed to operate in a bubble with their lottery system and even odder is that all siblings automatically get a place!

Bibbity, I have no idea which band moves fastest, but I would guess that more of top band applicants are on waiting lists for grammars or perhaps selective private schools? And possibly the same for music places?

Also someone at a Dunraven open day told me that the lowest band had the smallest 'catchment' because it accounted for so many Looked After Children (as many children with SEN are or have been in LA care) and if children have statements they will automatically be in their first choice school so won't be on waiting lists elsewhere . The same could be true at Kingsdale?

I'd still like to know the opinion of an admissions legal expert like prh47bridge

Coming up!

I do not know if this is how Kingsdale do it, but you can manage a lottery waiting list without a new draw

No, you cannot. The Admissions Code is very clear on the subject. Paragraph 1.34 states, "a fresh round of random allocation must be used each time a child is to be offered a place from a waiting list". The "must" means this is compulsory. So there must be a new draw every time a place becomes available.

Looking at Kingsdale's admission policy, it seems they re-rank the list whenever there is a new applicant and then continue to use those rankings until there is another new applicant. This is a clear breach of the Admissions Code. If someone refers this to the Schools Adjudicator I would expect the school to be told to obey the Code.

I know I suggested someone should report the school re its random allocation waiting list last year! Maybe in the East Dulwich forum . . I can’t deny a little Schadenfreude at prospect of the mighty Kingsdale humbled!

Thank you prh47bridge !

But given the experience of many people who have been on their waiting lists, they seem, in practice, to do one draw and then maintain the list from that one draw all the way up until Christmas and beyond!

Though I am not sure how that could accommodate the addition of late applicants to the list, given that there are no criteria to rank them except by lottery.

Someone above commented on the very high ratio of high attainers in the school. Reading the admissions policy it seems that the grade boundaries for the bands are set AFTER the tests have been set and marked, and the applicants split into three equal bands across the list of applicants.

So.... the more applications they have from well motivated high achieving candidates, the higher the grade boundaries will be, and the more higher attainers over all they will be able to admit!
This will boost results and in turn boost more of these families to apply. Canny. The hype, the thousands of tests to mark, all worth it!

I say again: it's a good comp.

But not a magical realm. and don't ask young people in the area for their eye witness accounts of a serious event that the school presented rather differently They play the game very well with marketing and strategy, just as other schools massage the geographical intake (e.g the notorious path that was disallowed by another good local comp) or find other ways to keep their reputation high.

HotpotLawyer, I was told around offer day that it was actually a person (senior member of local church, I think) that performed the selection.

it seems that the grade boundaries for the bands are set AFTER the tests have been set and marked, and the applicants split into three equal bands across the list of applicants

Do you think Kingsdale are the only school that does this...? I highly doubt it... I believe any school that has a skewed intake is also definitely guilty of this... Harris CP... cough cough

I’m glad you said it marytuda, because you do seem to be a bit bitter about the school.

I think that anyone who thinks the admissions code isn’t being applied properly, should definitely report the school. At least that way, if the school are found in breach then they be made to follow the procedures correctly in the future.

@Hotpotlawyer - that all sounds quite plausible but this child (the one I know) would definitely be in Band A academically.

Do you think Kingsdale are the only school that does this

They aren't. Some set the band boundaries based on the results from those that applied, some use boundaries that reflect the general population. Both are considered acceptable provided they are clear in the admission criteria.

The main problem with fair banding, and the reason some organisations that originally supported it are now against, is that it can exclude children from deprived backgrounds where the parents are not sufficiently organised to ensure their child is entered for and takes the test.

That pretty much explains how Kingsdale manages to be a comprehensive school for prior high-achievers! For certain, applicants are heavily weighted that way, vast majority being would be ‘scholarship’ students of one kind or another.
If schools can choose how they do the banding I imagine they’d all go with the method favouring a maximum intake of prior high achievers. Which means somewhere some unfortunate (unfashionable) schools are left with too many low achievers . . And it is definitely true in London (I noticed) that if you have band A child then the catchment area for any banded entry school is generally larger.
No I’m not bitter maz as I’ve said London is full of good state schools. I just always enjoy seeing the overconfident self-congratulator brought down a peg!

Maz: lots of schools set the boundaries in response to the results. The point I am making is that by ensuring that huge numbers of children of parents who are supervising, coaching, looking for various selective places, chasing music scholarships and providing music lessons and test practice etc, will raise the mean (or do I mean median, or average?) level of boundaries. So very high strainers in the top band, high strainers in the middle band and everyone else, including middle strainers in the lower band.

This in turn gives a high ability cohort overall, which will generate high league table positions.

You seem defensive. No one has said anything other than it is s good school. Pupils enjoy it, there are hard working and dedicated teachers. In addition to which there is a good deal of hype.

If I was a Kingsdale parent I don’t know if I would be happy with that many open days, it’s pretty disruptive to lessons and must take up a lot of the teachers’ time. Most schools manage with about 4 open days - a couple in the daytime and then an evening or weekend to catch working parents.

They had 7 open days, 3 of them on Saturdays in 2018, so it wasn't that bad.

ReasonedCamper, all i’ve done is correct questioned some inaccurate statements.

Also, wishing the school / HM misfortune because the school is over-confident, etc... isn’t exactly positive, is it...?

Re: the number of open days
I don’t see a problem with it, because the school still runs normally during open days held on weekday mornings. The open days are usually held over 1 Wednesday evening, 3 Wednesday mornings and 3 Saturday mornings.

I suppose there is some medium ground - i was particulary dissappointed that Habs in Deptford only had one open day - which meant that my partner could not come and see it. I think that an open day during school hours / after school and a weekend allows for parents with different work schedules to attend.

Most of the other school i went to see in the Soutwhark / Lewisham area all had multiple times - which i appreciated.

Most of the schools we visited had 2 or 3 open mornings during school hours, some offered an evening and Saturdays. Much like Kingsdale, it wasn't at all unusual in that. The number of applicants for many London schools are such that only a fraction could see the school otherwise.

Some of the schools were super-organised in this (book a slot), others threw the doors open and did their best managing the scrum.

maz, somehow, I don't think Kingsdale is all that bothered about what I think . I certainly don't care so much that I could be bothered to report any possibly illegal aspect of their admissions policy to any possible authority (though that might be good grounds for anyone wanting to appeal to the school, no??) I would hope maybe that they might be inspired at some point to modify any irregularity themselves . . . I do think it is useful generally to draw attention to the different ways "comprehensive" schools manage to select; whether we approve or not, we should know. We have to thank the government data (about pupils' prior attainment) for that; that's what demonstrates obviously that they do.

I have a DS at Kingsdale. I think part of the appeal of Kingsdale is that it is not based on catchment area. It is definitely overhyped. The progress scores say it all. The banding test and the scholarship system allow this school to select based on attainment at 11. What does the school really add? There are 20 kids who do well at GCSE and A-level who would do well anywhere. My child is lost in a huge intake.

The banding test and the scholarship system allow this school to select based on attainment at 11

The banding test does NOT allow them to select. It ensures the range of attainment of the children admitted broadly matches the range of those applying.

Fair banding was enthusiastically promoted a few years ago as a way of countering the tendency for good schools to exclude on financial grounds as house prices near the school went up. The problem with it is that places won't go to those who can't (or won't) organise attendance at the test (which tends to be children from the most deprived families) and, because some people (wrongly) think it means the school is selecting the highest performers, it puts some people off applying in the belief that their child isn't good enough. These two factors mean fair banding does not achieve its purpose.

So yes, fair banding does result in skewed admission but this is not because of the school selecting. If those applying reflected the range of ability in the population as a whole, that range of ability would also be reflected in those admitted.