Do private schools always over offer?

[worriedandstressedAAA]

Awaiting results from 2 schools which are due out this week for DS who is starting year 7 this September. These two are our buffer schools as DS didn't get offers at our other 2 preference schools. One school apparently had 200 applications for 70 places; the other had 300 for 80 places. Sitting here biting my nails and wondering how likely it is that DS will get an offer from either. He is slightly above average academically and thinks he did ok in the assessments and interview but who knows. Neither school is a hothouse and in previous years I am pretty sure he would have got an offer but this year seems ridiculously competitive with hardly any kids at DS's primary getting offers. Worried we will end up with no offers.

It's certainly true that a number of mid range schools basically offer to almost all applicants and so really aren't academically selective. They might have less of a range than some Comprehensives, but parents don't know that or don't like the idea, but do like the idea that their child passed the exam - it is in these schools interests to make it seem more selective than it is and to quote the fact that 500 sat for 100 places, without saying that they made 480 offers and then only filled 75 places anyway - it is the reality more than people realise. Look out for schools which mention being willing to consider late applicants or supplementary sittings - all trying to fill a few extra places before September.....and even some of the very good schools can find themesleves doing this when either their calculation about how many would accept isn't quite right or people later drop out for whatever reason. Not all schools operate waiting lists (often becaue those below the cut off for acceptance are not the academic level they want in their school) and those that do, find that after a couple of weeks after acceptance deadlines, waiting lists prove a bit useless as people have accepted somewhere and have emotionally committed to that choice and to fill the place requires going far down the waiting list to those the school perhaps doesn't really want anyway - so they'd rather consider a late applicant or run a supplementary exam in hope of better candidates.

Schools definitely don't want those figures leaking out about how many offers they make and how many accept as pretty much all make more offers than most people could imagine. The sense of being elite is lost when the figures are known, especially if a school has to offer to 500 to fill 80 places.

I’d love to know how schools calculate how many offers to make.

Yes I believe they do over offer but to varying extents as to how sought after they are. The 3 schools my dd have applied to have all put on extra classes in recent years therefore taking extra numbers than previous years. Is this down to overoffering or being a business trying to squeeze in extra children to obtain their extra fees? Two of the 3 schools have said they have to be very careful this year as they do not have room for an extra class this year. But then we have received offers from all 3 schools despite coming from a state school and hearing the high numbers applying this year. I think the London schools know that some children are doing up to 8 different school exams and they can’t accept offers from multiple schools. If the schools put people on a waiting list they are at risk of losing that child so the less popular schools maybe wouldn’t risk that.

Generally yes and each year lots of parents will end up losing a deposit as they have to accept a place at 2nd/3rd choice school to avoid losing it and then later get offered somewhere higher up their preference list.

Applied to 8 schools and thought was being OTT but only got two offers, both which were 'safety nets'. On w/l for 2 other schools (one I thought was also a safety net!) and straight out refusal from 4 schools. One refusal is a total shocker. Gutted. Should be grateful for offers but even DD said 'everyone gets into those schools' even though I have been so positive and non bias about schools. Done my best to stay calm and upbeat throughout the whole process but the system is vicious.

Mumstheword82 - Are these N London/central London schools? If so, I have friends who have gone through the whole process during the next few months. They tell me that they were shocked at the huge numbers sitting for such few places at some schools. Often 600-800 sitting for 60-70 places. Maybe it’s a high birth rate year? Brutal though, I agree.

During the last few months, I meant!

Yes they are. It is shocking. DD is devastated and trust me I didn't fill her with any ideas about schools but they figure it out from all the 'talk'. Crying her eyes out saying she must have really messed up, is such a failure etc. She's a fairly bright child, goes to an Indie, even had some tutoring and we were not even going for the very 'ambitious' schools.

Mumstheword82 - you have two places and two waiting list places. You need to stay positive for your dd’s sake and emphasise the numbers sitting and how well she has actually done sitting 8 exams and getting offers at 2 maybe 4 of these. Some children get no offers at all! If she didn’t get into a school it obviously wasn’t the right place for her. I’m sure she’ll be fine despite not getting into one of your top choices.

Schoolsout, you are completely right and I have been doing all you suggested. I told her it is great that she has offers as the numbers are so high etc. The trouble is despite all my efforts throughout the process to a) not talk much about 11+ and b) when it was talked about I constantly said they are all great schools etc, she still set her heart on two schools. Most kids from her current school will get spots at one of those two schools at least (some will refuse them) so she feels like she didn't do well. It doesn't help that at the school that refused her outright, her interviewer told her she was just what they were looking for. Obviously the interview didn't hold much weight. I'm feeling deflated and am cynical about the system but know deep down there are a lot worse things that could happen than not get into a school.

@Mumstheword82 is it the system that is vicious or the behaviour of parents? I can't imagine making my children sit exams for 8 schools. Mine did 2. The one we wanted and a reserve. We didn't bother applying for 5 other possible options. I understand that in some areas things are more competitive and there is more choice, but even so.

Perhaps there is a need for a UCAS type organisation that restricts everyone to 4 or 5 applications at most, and then operates a clearing system.

By the way, my children were at a normal state primary and had no tutoring.

It is a high birth year - and there are more people in London who wish to pay for private secondary school than places

The offers only came out yesterday so it's all about raw still, but these feelings will pass pretty quickly. Try not to engage in endless talk about it all and certainly not in comparisons to others. Focus onnthebpositives as others have said, and let the space of half term put a gap between offers Friday and the next week at school, by which time everyone will have moved on.

She's a bit shocked and you obviously are too. You're allowed to feel like that, although as parent you do have to be very careful about what you say about the system itself and other schools to her. You too will find that in a few days you've moved on too, to making your choice and looking forward to that next phase in whatever school. It might sound glib now, but it's true that after a couple of years, most people look back and say they can't remember quite what all the fuss and stress was about and their child is at a school which is working out well for them. This phase of crying and being really upset truly will be short-lived.

It is a high birth year (I remember that from initial primary places) so all London indies have had unprecedented applications. The 3 schools DD sat for were rammed and some had second sessions days later. I'm guessing the odds at two of them were 800 girls for 80 places. We were very fortunate that DD was offered all 3 so had a choice. That said I'm agog at asking children to sit for 8 schools! That feels like a brutal schedule and I know would have been too much for my DD. We had a favourite, a second very good choice and a banker.

Fifthtimelucky: Your kids must be a lot smarter than my DD. What can I say. If we had just applied to the one we wanted and one reserve then she most definitely wouldn’t have an offer right now. A UCAS system is a good idea.

I didn’t make my child sit 8 exams. 5 of the schools were in the consortium so she sat 4 exams. I had originally registered with fewer schools and was advised to register for more which turns out was good advice! She had a little tutoring to prepare but it was peanuts compared to what some kids are doing. Maybe I was too naive (although I don’t regret it).

Wombat: I realise it is all raw and we’ll get over it. It is just a shame that she is upset as she was so relaxed throughout the whole process up until now. She didn’t even remember the results were out yesterday. I have literally NEVER expressed an opinion to my DD about schools and have insisted that she has done well to get the offer she has. She is disappointed because she knows most girls from her school get an offer from the schools that refused her. I’ve tried my best to shield her from that but I can’t control what she sees and hears at school.

I’ve avoided other chit chat with parents like the plague. If I’m on here venting it’s because I can’t and won’t do it anywhere else.

@Mumstheword82 you've done everything i would have done to look after your daughter's interests. Vent all you like!

Without knowing the schools that you applied to I can’t advise specifically. My DD sat for 3 schools. What I can say is that it was a funny year for the consortium this year (DD didn’t do the consortium exam). One of the schools, Channing (which perhaps some have viewed previously as a back up), made a mistake on their prep school offers many years ago, have a double form, as a consequence, coming up to the senior school. This has meant they have significantly fewer places to offfer this year, as a physically small school they cannot exceed numbers. Many parents, knowing this and also trying to protect themselves from Channings exploding offer system, have added South Hampstead to their list as well as Channing. This has increased pressure on consortium places. If you add this to a higher birth rate, it might mean that your DD has had an unfortunately set of circumstances against her this year, as opposed to it being her own abilities that have meant fewer offers for her.

Thanks OVienna. Its good to have a good rant

Tissunnyupnorth: That all makes sense. Without going into detail it's mainly the SW indie schools but not the super ambitious ones such as SPGS! We didn't think we were being ambitious but luckily cast the net wide just in case! And here we are. Dealing with it a bit better today and googling lot's of nice reviews of the school she was offered. Trying to look on the bright side. I think she is dreading going back to school after the mid term and hearing about the girls who were offered places to the schools she would have liked. One Mum turned up at a school sports event the day of the offers and told her DD there and then that she got a scholarship at said school. DD heard it. You'd think she could have waited to tell her at home.

Fifthtimelucky, you sound really smug. I don't know anyone who didn't tutor or are your DCs already at an independent school where they are prepped for entrance exams? Even the brightest kids at state schools need some tutoring. As for sitting 8 entrance exams, yes it's awful, but you need to cast the net wide. One of DS's friend is seriously bright but only applied for 4 schools (2 very sought after, 1 supposedly less sought after, and 1 back-up) and only got the back that they don't really want. They wish that he had sat for one or two other schools so that they have more options.

Mumstheword, hope your daughter is ok. We are in a similar boat although DS got NO offers at all and 2 wait-lists. He is putting on a brave face but I can tell he is upset and his confidence has taken a massive blow. I just want to hug him and protect him from this awful system. We only tried private as the local state options are dire. Looks like we will now need to move house or just accept the local state school.

Oh and there seem to be SO many more options for girls than boys in London, especially north London. We really really struggled to find decent private schools for academically average kids where we have a hope in hell of getting into. Seems like they only want the brightest kids and the rest just get chucked on the scrap heap. Sorry, sounding very bitter here.

Maidavala: HUGE hugs to you and your DS. So sorry to hear about the stress you are going through. It puts mine well into perspective. I would be in the same scenario right now except that right before the cut off for registrations I had a conversation with a Mum who told me that her child had applied to 4 'realistic' schools 2 yrs ago and got none. I panicked and registered for more. The options for 'average' kids are negligible. (yet MOST kids are 'coasting average'!!!). The schools talk the talk about not wanting them tutored, take into account the 'whole child' etc is complete rubbish. The reality is it suits them very well to have 10 / 11 yr olds served up on a silver platter all prepped and pristine with GCSE level maths at the age of 10 etc. Any head who genuinely does want to assess the whole child does not have the resources to do so with 800 or so applying for 80 places.

I'm in the US but in the northeast where there are a lot of private high schools. They definitely over-offer. 2 years ago my dd2's school ended up with the biggest freshman class ever because their usual formula failed them - they had an enormous yield (accepted offers). They just sucked it up. DD said it was like the school had been overrun by 9th graders - they were everywhere!

I don't know if it is the same in UK but here you get accepted, rejected, or wait-listed. Is that a thing in the UK? or is it rejected/accepted. If there is a wait-list concept, then I would write to or call both schools and assure them they are your top choice and you would take an offer if given. To be honest, I might try that anyway - write and say "you remain our top choice of school for our son because of your clear commitment to blah blah blah and demonstration of blah blah blah. Should a place become available as you deal with accepted offers, please know that we would definitely accept it"

Maidavale, mumstheword and all of you on waiting lists or without places I am so sorry to hear. I guess we are lucky as DS is really happy to have been offered a scholarship to one of the schools. It was the backup but he isn’t aware of that. But my issue is that the one we really wanted he is on the wait list. I’ve spoken to them and he’s quite high on the wait list, but they think it’s unlikely they’ll have any places come up until after the state schools offer in March - but because the other place is a scholarship offer we have to let them know straight after half term or lose the scholarship - could still have a place but without the scholarship. Just don’t know what to do as don’t want to lose the scholarship but definitely don’t want to pay two deposits. What should we do?

Of the two schools they are both lovely and I know it’s not all about results but the one we have gets around 60percent 7 8 and 9 grades, and the wait list one is in the high 90s. It’s a big difference.

@Mumstheword82 Also, regarding the interviewer's comments, that does happen. I have said too many outing things to give a local example to me but it's hard to know what they could be thinking getting a child's hopes up that way. It doesn't help trying to manage a child's expectations. If you are at a prep this is something you could feed back through him/her.

Sometimes it feels like schools will expect parents to put up with any old shite they throw out - exploding offers, poor communication- doesn't it?

The system can be very arbitrary. As I said on another thread, with DD1 the outcome could have gone a different way. There is no way to be sure your strategy of getting through the process 'worked' or if actually you got (very) lucky. In theory it should help being in a private prep- at least they will not obstruct on ideological grounds by doing things like refusing references which I have also seen people posting about -but they sometimes have an imperfect picture of a child's abilities and the competition at the schools. My children's school has substantially improved analysis of data around this since DD1 went through the exams. They couldn't, however, do anything about the 900 kids as opposed to 650-750 in prior years, now taking the feeder school paper.

Just for your own info - and @MaidaVala2000 - what routes do you have at 13+?

Hi everyone, Taminini the nightmare of a waitlist is you may well end up losing a deposit. Unfortunately you cannot assume a waitlist place will materialise. I have definitely been burned by this after weeks of encouraging feedback about chances only for waitlist to close. Unfortunately the registrar can’t predict with any more accuracy than what happened last year and some years move and some don’t. I would be tempted to take the scholarship. Or calculate what you will save with it compared to paying two deposits?
Everyone else I remember that waiting list pain and wish you all the best. Here is hoping that those that have an offer in hand and know for sure what they will take are considerate and quickly let the schools know.

Agree about lack of boys options- certainly in SW London, fewer “in the middle” options, a Surbiton would be very welcome! Otherwise it’s seems limited to Ibstock and Emmanuel.
In response to original poster I think schools offer offer enormously- but- that doesn’t mean they always go to waitlist. Unfortunately.