Things you wished you had known about the 11 plus process

[Goposie]

For me, that the numbers applying are crazy and the sheer odds stacked against getting in.

It’s always a bit of an angels on the head of a pin moment for supporters of selective education Non selective schools are amazing and wonderful and just as good if not better than grammar schools so what are you complaining about? My child? Oh no- my child needs a grammar school.

However, the bipartite system raises ADDITIONAL barriers, not only to these children but ALSO to children with uneven profiles.
I don't think that's true Cant. NI is a wholly selective region that regularly out performs England in exam results. Around 40% of our children attend grammar. Perhaps the answer then is more grammars and more choice, not remove all choice from everyone except the richest in society.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-37181377
www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/education-37175848

I used the 2016 HOSE results as they are comparable, I'm not sure how the new marking system works.

Did my child need a Grammar School, probably not. Does she love it. Yes.

This is the system we have and it worked for us. One to Grammar because it would probably suit her best. One to Comp because that suited him best. Same as you and your DC you didn’t send them both to non Grammars to up the numbers of clever DC in those schools.

Like I said we are in a normal area with SS Grammar so plenty of clever DC in the Comp.

Have you ever wondered what would happen to the kids flying at the top of the Comps if all those Grammar DC had got in and pushed them down to set 2 or 3. They may not have been quite so confident as they are now? If the top 75 - 100 % were in the Comp they would push the 74th Centile DC which were in the tops sets with a few 75 - 100 Centile DC down, and they wouldn’t be able to move up because there wouldn’t be the space.

That should be GCSE, not HOSE. My auto correct has gone a bit mental. I don't know what HOSE is.

Bert do you have a link to a study showing the psychological impact on individuals and on society.?

I doubt either of my DC will sit the 11+ but here (Northern) it's a Saturday test, not overly competitive but not that many sit it, no choice if you pass it - tests are for the specific school - a few will also sit a test for a private school but basically it's one test.
However people do tutor from about Y3 which is ridiculous.

So really what we actually need is just good schools, not just comps.

We need all schools to teach all DC effectively not just one type of school that teaches everyone at the same speed/level regardless of what level they come to the school at.

That is the real issue not Grammar or Comp but a good education for all DC.

Oh and @BertrandRussell they also
Set at DDs School, they aren’t all at the same level just because they all passed the same test.

“We need all schools to teach all DC effectively not just one type of school that teaches everyone at the same speed/level regardless of what level they come to the school at.”

Who on earth is suggesting this is a good idea?[Hmm]

@BertrandRussell you keep saying that all DC should be educated in the same place, no selection at 11.

I don’t agree I think there should as a PP said, be more Grammar Schools. Has education for the masses improved hugely since lots of Granmar Schools were closed in the 70’s?

I moved into a Grammar School area when I was 11. I went straight into a Secondary Modern, the Grammar school was already full and I wouldn’t have passed anyway (being a bit dim 😁). My school was terrible.

Was if because it was s Secondary Modern? No it was because of the area it was in and the DC that attended plus the schools attitudes. It was as they say, a holding pen, until you were old enough to go to work.

Two schools up the road in the naicer area were where everyone was desperate to get their DC in, if they didn’t pass the 11+. They always did well even being in a Grammar School area, with the top 20% creamed off.

Guess where my Dbro went to school?

My DD is rediculously interested in learning, she loves school, hates kids who mess around and disrupt lessons. She has more DC like her in the Grammar School and she is really enjoying it.

And,Tinty, this is the attitude that makes me feel absolutely ballistically furious.
It's an attitude that often surfaces on pro selection threads,that academically able children should not have to cope with disruptive behaviour and lack of motivation in their classmates. That they'll be happier.They don't explain why coping with those things that make learning harder is OK for less academic children.And the comments that children who don't pass the 11+ don't want to work/learn.
I could say exactly what you say about your daughter about my DC.And my friend's son.All in secondary moderns ,all of whom came home one after the other in year 7 upset because they wanted to work and other kids were messing around. DD who said she wished she had passed the 11 plus because she might have met people who were interested in the same things that she was.
That is all personal and anecdotal I know - and it goes further back to the point when of my group of 3 friends 2 passed to the most selective local state school and our 3rd friend didn't pass at all.She and I now have similiar level professional jobs,btw.We had been educated together perfectly well until that point,and we could have still all had a good education together in a good comp.

(And as has been said many,many times our choice here in Kent is not Grammar/Comp.)

If the whole cohort of children don't do better in Kent than in comparable areas,you can't really argue that Gramnar schools produce better results,can you? It's been a great big control for comprehensive education for all these years...
(Northern Ireland does fo better I think - but it is culturally different)

“BertrandRussell you keep saying that all DC should be educated in the same place, no selection at 11”

I do. Why does that make you think I believe they should all be educated at the same speed and level? [baffled emoticon]

Can’t you are ignoring the fact that it isn’t the 11* letting those kids down. They are let down before they set foot in school as many are far behind starting school. The comp system certainly doesn’t help them as very few appear to be in the equivalent top sets in far bigger numbers going by GSCE results( the best indicator). Such children have been shot in the foot long before they even get to the 11+ year and most aren’t anywhere near grammars or the system but hey let’s keep focusing on a teeny tiny amount of schools and ignore the far bigger picture as it suits your grammar vendetta.

I can’t speak for Kent, the maj of grammars in Eng aren’t even there. I prefer the grammar system away from Kent but if pushed I can only go by your statement that children move from secondary mod to grammars at 16 so clearly bright kids in one subject can be pushed there whilst receiving help in another subject.

InfiniteCurve

I agree no DC who love learning, should have to put up with other DC messing about and disrupting their education.

Which is why I said the Schools should have good effective teaching. It should start at Primary and follow through to Secondary and the DC that mess around should be stopped.

At DDs school anyone who messes around is sent out and on a warning. They are very strict. At the Comp they are not so strict so more kids mess about.

So basically I don’t say it is ok for my DD because she is clever I say it is ok for my DD because she copes less well with DC messing around than my DS did. He went to Comp and loved it. He is just as clever as DD but a different more confident person.

But no I don’t think any DC should have to put up with disruption.

And your anecdotal story of your friends. Can be compared to my story of going to a failing School and coming out with no qualifications. But all the DC in the Primary I attended for two months at the end of year six who went to the Grammar School did brilliantly compared to me and most went on to Uni. No one from my school did (except one girl who went to Uni at 27 after going to College).

At the Comp they are not so strict so more kids mess about.

But can't you see that this is not a function of the type of school, but school policy and its implementation (affected, of course, by the fact that the grammar will have virtually no children with SEN or family background affecting their behaviour, while the comprehensive will have disproportionately many. if these were shared out fairly, then both schools would face the same behaviour challenges and thus any differences between them would be a function of the school, not its intake...)

And why aren’t you worried about Sats? Far more parents are tutoring for that to ensure top sets in comps.

So much sophistry on here......

@BertrandRussell

I just think that Comps teach to the middle level and as people have said previously if DC get a 6 at Comp when they are capable of an 7/8 it doesn’t matter as long as the 4 kids are brought up to a 5.

My DS is a spiky profile boy brilliant at Maths and Science average at English. Comp suited him.

N Ireland has a long tail of underachievers. This has been a recognised problem for a long time and is the downside of the selective system there
www.niassembly.gov.uk/globalassets/documents/raise/publications/2012/education/17712.pdf
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-35306225
publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmselect/cmpubacc/108/10805.htm

And yes BertrandRussell
I have said DC at the comp do get as good results as at the Grammar but there are far fewer of them and it is probably because they are really clever (some of my DS’s friends were), and they had interested parents who did a lot out of school.

And tosh re grammars not having behaviour issues. Parents argue, break up, drink and die across the spectrum. Kids drink and do drugs across the spectrum. Kids struggle with friendships and being LGBT across the spectrum.....Families working all hours on not very big wages and even medium wages of whom there will be many at grammars can’t help their dc and are probably just as equally stressed but in different ways.

Cantkeepawayforever

Why then did the two schools near my failing school do ok and one school (mine) 😡 do terribly?

These two other schools were also secondary moderns as there were 2 Grammar schools in my area and 3 other schools.

What were the demographic of the intakes?

(Both in terms of ability and income)

You can only compare SCHOOLS in any meaningful way once intakes are matched - or at least as matched as possible.

The DfE website used to have a really interesting way of comparing 'similar schools' nationally, which though wildly imperfect, did give a more sensible way of comparing schools...I think it has vanished....