Things you wished you had known about the 11 plus process

[Goposie]

For me, that the numbers applying are crazy and the sheer odds stacked against getting in.

Bertrand are you really Doris Stokes ?

Just a quick shout out here to the parents of children whose idea of fun IS flash cards.

We get more prejudice about the fact my DD’s love in life is learning I’ve ever seen re parents income or perceived status.

“She’ll burn out”, “You must hothouse”, “Is she autistic?”, “Children should be allowed to be children...”, we’ve had the lot.

My daughter was years ahead even at Reception. Her love in life is to learn, her reasoning is astounding, her memory phenomenal. She would want to do flash cards in the queue if she needed to pass the time because that is her fun. And we would get the comments.

No doubt there are children who worry and would want to do last minute prep also. No doubt there’s are parents who “push” beyond the fun but we’re not all like that.

I could look at a reception class in Kent and make a fairly accurate assessment of who was going to grammar school based on entirely non academic factors. grin
I thought people labelling children "failures" because they went to High school instead of Grammar was depressing enough. But to do so at the age of 4 is truly shocking and disgusting.

“So what else would you base knowing "just by looking at a Reception class", which DC would get into a Grammar School?”

I did say fairly accurately!

“ often the PP children are those whose parents don’t encourage them to take the test.”

Exactly. Which is why the selective system is inherently unfair.

Many won’t be at the level required but it is easily rectified for those that are. Primaries give a heads up and support to parents, not hard.

Schools aren't allowed to coach children for the 11+ because it's supposed to measure their natural aptitude. I know schools that do, and it makes me cross. I think the statement about PP children is fair, DD was the only PP child in her year who entered, and the only PP child in the schools history to have passed (very deprived part of Kent, high numbers of PP and SEN children)

Yes I’m totally in agreement re: PP children. Incidentally our school will send a couple of children to grammar this year and whilst I’m not sure about the other’s PP status, our school isn’t in a privileged area. We are from a working class background, parents still in social housing, decent jobs now but we’ve worked our way up after living through crap comprehensives. Hence the option given to our child to sit the 11+. I’m not a fan of a two tier system but given we live in one we’ve tried to do our best within it.

Rugbyfam I’m sure some children do enjoy flashcards, my own child does. That really isn’t what was happening that day though, believe me.

Grammars visit our primaries and send letters. Teachers can send home materials. Our 11+ Is based on year 5 curriculum and more than 1 pp a year attend.And again Kent doesn’t speak for every grammar school.

I’m not in Kent. I’m in Gloucester; no grammar schools visited our primary, there was no acknowledgement at all apart from a reminder to sign up for the test.

In Kent primary schools are allowed to teach to the Test. The idea is that it is a test of natural ability and untutorable.

Thanks Bertrand. Is that because it’s a fully selective area?
CEM is meant to be untutorable however I don’t think that’s the case in practice.

Kent primaries aren't allowed to coach them for the test, where do you get that idea?

Oops-sorry. AREN’T allowed to teach to the test! And technically a school could have it’s results declared null if it was found out they did.

*Its results.

I wouldn’t pass, would I?

Even CEM have stopped saying that their test is untutorable

This is not entirely relevant but a very great friend of mine's nephew was eligible for pupil premium ( based on Mum's ( single parent ) income) - they would not claim it because they thought he would be stigmatised at school. He is doing OK and applying for a range of good universities , but I just thought was a sad story - 1. because it would have helped them and 2. I t could have helped the school. - So not a 11+ thing necessarily but just do do with schools which have less in the way of resources. The school is fine & he is doing very well , but just a short comment on a social thing which I have observed. Anecdote only. More to the point of a school where many come from families where not much in the way of home help. As it happens friends nephew is lucky in that my friend does something of the "cultural capital"

Education subsidies are always in danger of stigmatizing the recipient, even if only in the perception of the recipient themselves. In some countries there are systems whereby schools (rather than pupils) in very deprived areas are labeled in order to receive extra funding and support. This has the perverse effect of making these schools even more undesirable in parents’ and pupils’ eyes, and thus hastening the departure of good pupils and teachers. It’s a recipe for creating sink schools.

@BertrandRussell

I think I know the answer of how to get more PP and so called Working Class DC into Grammar Schools and how to prevent Grammar Schools being full of Middle Class tutored DC.

Would you like to know?

I could look at a reception class in Kent and make a fairly accurate assessment of who was going to grammar school based on entirely non academic factors. Not in Kent, but you wouldn't have picked my dc either. Another single parent on benefits, dc in second hand uniform, with a cough and runny nose from living in a house with a black mould problem. Poor expressive language skills. It was only the academics or a Lego set that gave away how bright he actually was at that age.

The parents of the bright kids are doing something right. The majority of these parents choose for their child where possible to take the 11 plus, seek out selective schools, or pay for private.

Can I ask a question of grammar supporters?

We speak of 'bright children' as if a child is either 'clever across the board' or 'not clever across the board' - which anyone acquainted with the education of real children knows is not always the case.

What do grammar supporters believe should happen to children with extremely spiky profiles in selective areas?

For example, if a child is exceptionally gifted in Maths but struggles with English - and therefore fails the 11+ - how do they access the correct Maths curriculum for them, as 'restricted range comprehensives / secondary moderns / the non-grammar schools' would not contain this child's maths peer group?

Or if the same child is coached enough in the English skills within the 11+ to pass, how do they access the appropriate English curriculum for them, as the grammar school will not contain their peer group in English?

Whereas in a comprehensive they can simply be top set Maths, low set English, within the same building and timetable.

Unfortunately, nobody cares Cantkeepaway. Everybody is looking out for themselves. "Gifted" kids are prone to dyslexia, dyspraxia, late development, etc. There's no 11+ test for creativity or out of box thinking. Micahel Morpurgo on failing his 11+: "The notion is that they have thought you to be stupid, that's what it tells you." This thread has made me more grateful than ever that I'm in a comp area. Better to take the one in 5 all rounder than the one in 200 creative who cannot spell.

Grammar schools have sets too. DS's school had 4 sets for maths for example. Top set moved on faster and did further maths. Bottom set was much smaller, about 15, and got much more support. Nearly all ended up with A or A* at GCSE even the bottom set. My own school had sets for maths and languages. Neither school set for English though.

WhiteRose,

I have taught - at primary - children who will go on to get a 9 in Maths and if lucky, a 4 for English. And vice versa, in fact one who was absolutely brilliant at English will probably struggle to get a 1 or 2 uin Maths due to a diagnosis of dyscalculia.

Which school should she go to? Grammar? Or secondary modern? Or, luckily, comprehensive - top set English, daily SEN support in lowest set Maths. It is those children I am asking about - the utterly brilliant iin one area, really really struggle in another - not those who 'will be in a grammar's bottom set but get an A'. Which school should they go to in a bipartite county - grammar or secondary modern??