Things you wished you had known about the 11 plus process

[Goposie]

For me, that the numbers applying are crazy and the sheer odds stacked against getting in.

It’s also important to remember that GCSE results in wholly selective authorities are barely different to those in similar comprehensive authorities.

I don’t understand the grievance here. It’s not a compulsory test so don’t put your kids in for it. But because you don’t like it doesn’t mean that all parents/children don’t. Leave them alone, they are nothing to do with you.

As for the “failure” thing, plenty of children couldn’t give a damn about a pass mark and would t be discouraged.

I learned for sure what I already suspected-that it is a psychologically damaging, societally divisive, educationally questionable and crashingly unfair system.

Then why did you put your DC through it? My DS has SEN and didn't find it at all psychologically damaging. As for being socially divisive, there is a much better social mix at his grammar than he would have experienced at our local high school.

Ha ha ha re the comp in Cheltenham not being socially exclusive. Balcarass has less pp kids than the grammars my kids go to. The housing in the catchment is £££££££ and the only reason it has pp kids( the numbers of which are a lot lower than the national average) is due to social housing. Many poorer families not lucky enough to get social housing are shut out. They can however apply to one of the many grammars in the area if they choose.

I have family there who could never in a million years afford the housing catchment for Balcarras. The alternative they can afford housing in the catchment for has double the pp of Balcarrass and has a poor below average progress 8.Soooo they tried for one of the many grammars in the area and were successful. They don’t have the money for expensive housing but did manage to cobble together some cash to get them up to speed with exam technique ie the 11+ gave them a chance to get the type of schooling they wanted which selection by property took away.

Dione, that's the point.Grammar schools may be socially mixed ( though in our area they aren't more socially mixed than the secondary moderns) but if the non selective schools are less mixed as a result you have a more divisive system,particularly if most children go to non selective schools.
It really isn't only about the effect selection has on those children who pass the 11+.
And vwpurse, same comment - in selective areas the whole secondary system affected by that ,obviously. Even if your children don't sit the exam their education will be affected by it.
I am a tall poppy - or I was at 11, I went to a top end selective school ,I was very happy there and I did well in exams - though that has't made me a particularly high achieving adult. My DC aren't. From both perspectives I don't think it's a good or fair system.

N0rdic,

You misunderstand me.

I didmn't say that any of the 'lowest percentage of PP children' non-grammars weren't socially selective. I pointed out, in fact, that one was a faith school, and one was one of the comprehensives pointed out on MN as as leafy and 'socially exclusive' as they come.

The point I was making was that every single grammar in Gloucestershire is more socially exclusive than even these comprehensives. Every single grammar, without exception, has a %PP lower than Balcarrass (sp?). So regardless of house prices, the grammars manage to exclude more deprived children than even this comprehensive.

The local high school is less socially diverse, not because grammars exist, but because it is in a very deprived area. The grammar is also in a deprived area, but is attended by children from all social classes from all across the city.

But because you don’t like it doesn’t mean that all parents/children don’t. Leave them alone, they are nothing to do with you.

Do you - genuine interest here - adopt this attitude to everything that affects society as a whole? So if you feel that something is unjust, or wrong, or damages the fabric and wellbeing of society (particularly the most vulnerable) you say 'this is nothing to do with me or you'?

If so, then at least you are consistent. If you ONLY apply it to grammar schools, why? Is that because you like being a 'winner', and don;'t want a system that has made you visibly and obviously a 'winner'? Does everyone who lives in your area but attends the 'other' school ALSO want the system preserved exactly as it is?

Grammars are most sought after and increasingly filled by ethnic minorities that value an education known to be formally academic. I’m not sure if that can be called promoting privilege, rather the changing demographic is the result of specific ambitions and hard work of those ethnic minorities. British Caucasian percentages are dwindling independently of socioeconomic class.

Children are bussed in from all over to the grammars in that area not just Cheltenham. The competition is fierce from far afield. Many don’t want or apply for grammar and will be relying on the city comps. You’ve conveniently forgotten about the alternatives to Balcsrras. The option open to my family isn’t Outstanding and doeent have an amazing progress 8( it’s below average). Sooooo the very wealthy and those lucky enough to get social housing get Bslcarras, the rest get the leftovers.

N0rdic,

I am purely working with the data about %PP.

I gave the range for all the Cheltenham schools - in fact all the Gloucestershire schools - and for the grammars.

I am making a purely statistical point, using the data sets publicly available,and a county which is often cited on here as partially-selective. As someone who clearly knows the schools individually, rather than just statistically your points are different, and not what i was addressing:

• Another poster said that social and privilege divisions occurred between secondary moderns and grammars.

• A further poster stated that this was the case for fully selective counties (which she didn't believe in) but implied that it was not the case in partially-selective counties (a system she supported)

• I used data from a well-known partially-selective county that all grammar schools even in a partially selective county were more socially selective and excluded more disadvantaged children than ANY comprehensives in the county, even those which, as you so eloquently argue, are perceived by locals as being very highly socially

selective.

That is what the data says. I am sure that the specific points you make are true - looking at the maps that can be accessed with the data, it appears that surrounding primary schools also have low %PP, implying that it is a privileged area. I agree that the other Cheltenham schools are even further from the grammars in terms of social selection and thus Ofsted grade (remembering that Ofsted grades are quite strongly correlated with %PP, it is unsurprising that those with higher %PP are not Outstanding - that is a picture in the national data)

You in fact illustrate what i said earlier about wishing all schools to have 'standardised' intakes as far as %SEN and %PP are concerned. The public, and Ofsted, would then be able to get a MUCH clearer picture as to when a school's results and grade are a genuine function of the teaching and learning, or an artefact of intake.

Following

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No one has answered the poster’s question about teachers above. Good teachers will always out and there will be a scramble for those schools by those that know. It will always be unequal. Those that can scramble quicker will get there first. That’s life. We’re not going to sack anyone with great results because it’s not fair on the others, child or teacher.

If education is important to you, and it isn’t to all, you start doing what you can when your children are tiny. You have fewer children so you can afford the best. That’s your choice. You move, you find friends with bright kids, you do projects, you go to museums and do educational things on the weekend and fill your house with books. It’s a full time job navigating your child’s educational upbringing.

Some live for for football, some for family life, some don’t have interests at all. Education is just one aspect but yes, one that many think is the most important.

My child attends one of the best private schools in London. We saved his school fees before we had him. Why would you not if you are unsure about the other schools in your area? And if you can’t (we both worked full time and put off having a child for many years) then you need to move to an area with better schools.

You can’t drag the others down because you want the best and aren’t, or your children aren’t, prepared to make sacrifices.

That it’s outdated and biased favouring boys over girls!

Bertrand, did your children all get into grammar schools? You sound like you have a grudge.

cantkeepawayforever Your numbers are blinding you to the real point. Human nature is what it is. Each number isn’t equal. Some parents don’t care. Some kids don’t care. You can’t do this with numbers.

I agree some parents don’t care. It’s the ones in the middle who do care but whose children are not quite bright enough that are whining.

But you are discussing completely different intakes re the grammars and the socially selective comp. There are several grammars you can apply for and they aren’t all located in Cheltenham but all over. If you don’t get into one and are bright chances are you’ll get into another. The intake covers a huge area and not just Cheltenham. Other schools within that huge area are unlikely to be impacted in the same way they are in Kent.

The intake for Balcarras only takes those from the posh end of Cheltenham, those with a very big house budget or help with social housing. My family are struggling to buy adequate housing in the less posh area of town with the lesser school they don’t really want. Balcarras would never, ever be possible.

You are deluded if you think hard working families who don’t qualify for help with housing should just except a lesser school and not strive for more when others in the country get a far better school experience for their dc. The kids in my family have never had a foreign holiday or even been on a plane, share a cramped bedroom and live pretty frugally. The fact you think because they are not pp and have hard working parents who scraped some cash for exam technique they are somehow less deserving of others who get help to go to the best comps is ludicrous. This happens all over the country.

Sounds a shit place to live. Move.

And if you won’t, that’s your problem. Not the shit school your kids end up going to.

Bloody whiners.

My sister wanted to be a ballerina. She wasn’t built right. Her bf wanted to be in the police force but wasn’t tall enough. My friend’s son’s eyesight wasn’t good enough for the RAF.

That’s life.

You’ve got more chance of getting into a grammar then the above. Or maybe not if intelligence is the same as height and you get what you’re given.

They are not going to change the rules for a short person though, that’s life. Find what you’re good at and work on that.

Or just whine a lot like your parents!

They can’t and don’t need to move. They got into schools they are happy with thanks to the 11+.

People on this thread moan about privilege in a country where education is accessible for all.

Even if you have low intelligence.
Even if you are badly behaved.
Even if your parents are a nightmare and have asbos.
Even if you weren’t born here.

You will be given an education and even helped to get to the place where you are taught and fed when you are there if you have no money, without having to walk several miles or work before or Ayer the school day.

Yet you moan because some people seem to have it better than you by one point.

Pah.