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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

has anyone gained a space at a selectiive school without a tutor?

122 replies

ananga · 09/01/2019 09:18

Hi everyone,
I woke up rather stressed yesterday morning when I started to question my choices as a parent in refusing to tutor my children for the 11+. I firmly believe tutors are invaluable when a child is struggling in a subject and their expertise can help them gain stability in an area they are weak. However, I have always wanted my children to have a natural passion for learning without the aid of a tutor. I want them to learn because they want to not because I am forcing them to. Coming for a community where tutoring is the norm I have always tried to be strong to resist it.

However, the other day I realised that all the parents I knew were specifically tutoring their children for 11+. I have spent time researching the same and a lot of evidence suggests that tutored kids do perform better. My concern is where does it stop? Children are being tutored throughout Secondary Schools too.

I know Grammar schools may require tutoring, however I have always hoped there would be more chance with the indies as many do non verbal and verbal reasoning. (I know these can be prepped for too) But recently I feel that may not happen either as in the end it is the exam that matters.

So please would any one mind sharing if they have achieved places at selective boys schools without the aid of a tutor?

Thank you

OP posts:
jessstan2 · 11/01/2019 17:47

My son did and, more recently, both of my neighbour's children.

JenFromTheGlen · 11/01/2019 17:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Hiddeninplainsight · 11/01/2019 19:57

We are tutoring. My DD is very bright but the grammar's are all super selective. As for any exam, she needs to be prepared and although she should get in without prep, she is going to be competing against kids who are prepared.

Whether preparation is done by a prep, by a parent or by a tutor- the competition is so crazy for the super selective so think I think significant preparation is needed for the vast majority of kids. My DD has a tendency to rush because she finds work at school unchallenging, so she needed to learn that it is okay to find things hard, and then the strategies to deal with that. And she needed (needs) to learn to slow down. And she needed some exposure to VR and NVR. We could have tried it ourselves but we have been able to get a tutor because time is hard.

PettsWoodParadise · 11/01/2019 21:20

No tutor but we spent an hour a week from Y5 on familiarisation and test techniques. 2 mock tests to identify weak areas so we could focus our efforts.

DD has the advantage of a good foundation in vocabulary (via reading, watching news, writing, talking lots, debates) and that she wanted to do the tests - key elements.

walkingtheplank · 11/01/2019 21:47

You'll notice that lots of people say their child wasn't tutored but this usually means that they did not pay someone to tutor their child. The child may still have had tuition to prepare for the 11+ from school, or more often, at home.

Its unusual for a child to have not been tutored by someone in advance of the test because parents know that it's competitive and therefore tuition by a paid tutor, school or themselves is necessary.

I did have a chuckle once at primary school when 2 parents were talking next to me. One mum asked a dad whether they knew of any good tutors. The dad said, "Oh no, you don't want to do that - you just need to do a bit of practice over Christmas before the exams" - which would have been fine for him to say if his child wasn't the boy who had the tutor slot after my son and we were a year away from the exams.

crazycrofter · 11/01/2019 22:37

We genuinely didn’t tutor for the independent school test in the Jan. We had done some non verbal and mental maths practice over the summer for the state eleven plus but that wasn’t really relevant for the independent school exam.

The only reason people struggle to believe it’s possible is because everyone tutors so you assume it must be necessary - but how many of those kids would have got in anyway? Probably most of them!

If the test is comprehension, creative writing and maths (which ours was) why would you need to tutor, unless your child is at a very poor school? What would tutoring add?

MrsPatmore · 11/01/2019 22:43

Crazycrofter entirely depends on what level of school you are going for.

crazycrofter · 12/01/2019 00:09

True,but I think her school is fairly selective - best girls school in the midlands I think. Obviously not as selective as London schools but the GCSE league table I found (last years I think) has it fourth behind St Paul’s, the Perse and Westminster.

I’m genuinely questioning why a child would need tutoring in these areas if they’re already taught well at school and how much a child’s maths or creative writing can really be improved at this stage.

GiantKitten · 12/01/2019 00:13

Possibly not relevant these days, but my 4 kids got into the local selective grammar untutored. (Roughly 1:4 passed)

Youngest left in 2009 though; I fear it might be way more competitive by now Confused. I know someone local claimed recently that everybody who got in was tutored.

crazycrofter · 12/01/2019 00:18

In the Sunday Times parent power league table, which weights more towards A Levels it was no 23 nationally - not sure but I’m guessing that suggests it’s pretty selective? I just think there’s a tutoring conspiracy going on which is entirely unnecessary!

We did tutor our son, because we knew he wasn’t really up to standard and we wanted to make sure we gave him a good chance. The tutoring didn’t really change his ability - and my dh is a very good primary teacher. I didn’t think we’d get him to the level they were after and we didn’t.

MrsWombat · 12/01/2019 08:45

My DS has recently passed the Kent and Bexley tests, and should get into our first choice grammar school. His score is high enough for an out of catchment place at the Kent school on our list.

He did two weeks (a total of 18 hours) at an 11 plus summer school the school holidays before his exam which focused on exam familiarisation and practising exam questions. We also did 30mins-1 hour a week at home doing the CPG books a few months beforehand. So I would class him as lightly tutored! However he has a fantastic vocabulary (essential for the Bexley test) and has always been top table in top set so was always going to do well. (Yes I'm one of those mumsnetters)

You can't send your child into one of these exams without any sort of familiarisation but if they need heavy tutoring they probably shouldn't be doing this at all. (We will probably end up doing things differently with our younger child) I appreciate it might be different for super selectives.

ChocolateWombat · 12/01/2019 09:27

Crazy crofter, the primary school may well have covered all the maths and English skills needed in the exam. However, the Grammars need to be able to distinguish between candidates and the tests will weed people out by asking them to complete an exceptional amount of work in a very short time and with a very high level of accuracy, which is difficult under time pressure. So the school might have taught the basic skills but the preparation which comes from a tutor or a parent home-prepping is about checking there are no gaps in the skills, making sure the skills can be applied to all kinds of scenarios and that they can work very quickly to time pressure and wih great accuracy. Having been taught well, being top of the top table and being on track for good SATs is all a good basis but might not be enough for these exams where there will be more children meeting the above list than there are places - so the exams have to be able to differentiate somehow and a child needs to be in that top group of candidates.

I agree that it's not great to need huge amounts of prep for many years. I agree that there will be some candidates who scrape in because of having very intensive prep and who then might struggle, but in all schools there will be those who are at the bottom and find things harder. I also agree that if all the prepping were removed from the equation and children were simply tested cold, a lot of the results would be the same. However, as were not in a system where people are tested cold, parents will continue to be concerned about their children taking that important test with the very best of chances against the many others, and it will remain that prepping seems and probably is the best way to have the best chance. Unfortunately, as some get carried away with the amounts of prep and numbers applying to some schools increase even more, reducing the amount of prep won't seem an option for most people. So saying it shouldn't be necessary etc etc may well be true, but in the current climate, prepping is likely to grow and not reduce.

Schools which use VR and NVR to test also add a skill not taught in state schools - a weird and unusual kind of test which many parents won't feel confident about, hence the need to certainly familiarise and often by tutors who have experience of this.

Independent school exams might be similar and different. In London, there is a lot if competition for some schools, but with many sitting 5 or 6 exams, the applicant numbers distort the level of difficulty of getting in as each child can only attend one school. Even with the very competitive nature if it all (and it might seem more competitive due to obsessive parental chat about it) I'd say children generally don't need to prep as much as for the super selective state Grammars and can be and often are a bit more relaxed. First of all, by paying, people have lots of choice. They aren't restricted by catchments and there are lots of independents where there are few superselective grammars without catchment, meaning parents can apply to lots if they wish and if they apply to a range of competitiveness, are sure to get somewhere in the end. Applications which would put the school as first choice,per place are also crucially lower - due to fees reducing the numbers who can apply - and this of course makes it easier to get places. At all but the very very top tier, and often even at those, children get offers, and even scholarships who didn't pass the superselective state grammar tests - in the end its demand and supply. So although many independent parents also prep and pay tutors and get in a stew about it too, the level of preparation and obsessive focus on prep I think is lower. Being able to pay simply gives you more options which relieves some pressure, which those with the only alternative being a terrible Comp (and of course many have a good Comp as the alternative, but still don't want that) don't have, and so are more driven.

crazycrofter · 12/01/2019 10:34

This is what I’ve been saying - you need to prep for grammar (not necessarily an external tutor and not necessarily for more than a few months) as the exams are time pressured and the material unfamiliar.

For independents round here anyway, the exam is maths/comprehension/creative writing and not time pressured. There’s only a need to tutor if your primary school is failing otherwise they should be well enough prepared by what they cover at school.

confusedmumofboys · 12/01/2019 13:31

Thank you all so much for your thoughts. This is such an amazing platform am truly so grateful as I enter this journey highly confused.

I always had a plan that I thought and hoped would be right for the boys education. I am however, always happy to steer the boat in a different direction that planned taking the experiences of others, changes due to time in place.

I do feel sad about the process and what is to come for these children as young adults. I am highly academically driven but not in a pushy way and want their passion to last a lifetime.

I was unfortunately not impressed at many of the schools i visited to see they were nothing more than results factories which although I can appreciate in a highly competitive age is simply not the education I want. Common sense, inquistiveness, that spark from learning and the pride that comes with achieving is so addictive I want the boys to have it.

I can see there is no end to tutoring and also how it may take away the confidence from the child that they needed it to pass, when quite possibly as many have said they would have passed anyway.

If anyone has any recommendations for schools in N/NW London/ Watford then please do share. Parental opinion is very valuable as opposed to school gate hearsay.

I would like a school which stretches the boys to think, solve problems, face the challenges of life well equipped rather than how to get an A or secure and Oxbridge place.

It's also frustrating when primary schools tell us not to tutor, yet offer very little support to those who are not tutored!

confusedmumofboys · 12/01/2019 13:33

Apologies for all the typos in my post!

KaliforniaDreamz · 12/01/2019 15:41

i loved City of London
my very clever DS sat the pre test competely unprepared and didnt get in.

have just gone through it all again with DD and found it HORRENDOUS.
if you have the stomach for it go for it. Your DH can prep him a home if he refuses to engage tutor but don't kid yourself that he'll get into super selectives without support

the playing field is grim.

GerdaLovesLiIi · 12/01/2019 17:20

Yes, DS1 passed the Cranbrook 13+ entrance with absolutely no preparation at all; however we are sending DS2 to tutoring sessions for local (Latymer) entrance and Kent 11+ as we're hoping to move and hedging our bets.

Roomba · 12/01/2019 17:25

DS managed to pass his 11+ without tutoring. We did go through a couple of practice ce papers first so he knew the format, but no way could I have afforded anything extra at all. At least two of his friends got in with no tutoring too.

It may be different here though as there's only a couple of grammars in the whole county. I don't know if that makes it harder or easier to gain a place.

confusedmumofboys · 12/01/2019 17:28

@kalinforniadreamz so sad to hear that about your son. Whilst the pretests are more iq based hence why I like schools that do VR and NVR papers unfortunately they can also be prepped for. The WUS head told me the NVR is the paper that holds the most weight which I thought was good. However, he also spoke about not tutoring when clearing most those applying to his school are heavily tutored.

I hope your son found a school that he is happy at.

Personally I don't think I have the stomach for it nor do I think it's probably worth it. I may keep 1/2 options and be detached from achieving them. Let's see lots to think about next few weeks

StandUpForYourRights · 12/01/2019 17:30

My DD was not tutored at all.

So many of her class were paying so much money for tutors and didn't get through.

EvilTwins · 12/01/2019 17:34

My twins were not tutored at all and both got in (we're Gloucestershire) They're year 8 now and thriving.

Frogletmamma · 12/01/2019 20:56

Dd got into superselective from state without tutors. But we did 1 1/2 hours a week at home on bond cgp books for 2 years. There were things in there they hadn't done at school. On her first nvr paper she got 48 percent, by the exam she was on 90.

FlumePlume · 13/01/2019 12:03

My dd has a scholarship offer (waiting to hear about more) from a selective private school. We haven’t employed a tutor, but have done home preparation (about an hour a week in Y5, but more in the summer holidays and the first half of the autumn term of Y6). The home preparation basically covered speeding up her mental maths, the Y6 maths school hadn’t yet taught her, VR and NVR familiarisation and exam technique.

ChristopherTracy · 13/01/2019 12:28

Our DD is probably top quarter by ability and has probably scored enough for a super selective place in March, we had weekly group tutoring from Sept Year 5 and DH did an hour of maths a day.

Over the summer holidays she did two mock tests and I covered all of the English writing tests - poems/letters/newspaper articles/creative writing.

You have to do it unless you have a genius child and even then I wouldn't want to send them into a test hall of 150 people without ever having done one - would you take the same approach for their GCSEs?

We were committed to the process and didn't want to leave anything undone - we knew then that we would have given dd the best possible chance and if it didn't work then it wasn't meant to be.

Incidentally all the chat about 'if they cant get in without tutoring then they shouldn't be there' is complete gubbins in a super selective area. DS scraped in to his school and s rubbing along in the middle of the year group. They all have the ability, the margins are just very small between them - a couple of marks.

ChocolateWombat · 13/01/2019 13:28

It shows there's a lot of difference between reality and rhetoric. Schools say don't tutor and to be fair, I think it's right they say that at least and aren't seen to further feed into the frenzy. Those who say the tutored will struggle or shouldn't have a place are often either those who did 11+ many many years ago and are out of touch with the reality, or those living in different areas where there isn't a selective school, or sometimes those who are in selective areas who haven't put their kids in for it or who didn't get a place and are a bit bitter about it.

Lots of people do home preparation of vast magnitude but like to think that it's very different to being tutored and then like to say their kid wasn't tutored and to denigrate tutoring. Sometimes the home prepared have had far more input than the tutored - just upthread someone referred to an hour of maths per day at home - it would be very unusual to have a tutor every single day.

And then there are also the lies that people tell to other parents. Those who say they don't have a tutor but do, those who say they aren't home preparing but are, those who say they've applied to 1 independent but it turns out they did 6, those who say they aren't putting in for super selectives but are. These are often people you've know since reception and talk honestly with about all kinds of things, but suddenly become liars in this area - it's quite odd.

And all this secrecy and the fact people find it difficult to talk about it being stressful or see it as some kind of great shame to embarrassment to have a child not get in, or a shame to admit to preparation or tutoring is what leads to people increasing their prep to daft proportions - because secrecy leads to rumours and boosts fear, and in the end it's fear which leads to preparation of ridiculous proportions 'to be on the safe side' - fear about loss of face if the child doesn't make it, fear about the alternative schools, fear about the idea of not getting what you want.