has anyone gained a space at a selectiive school without a tutor?

[ananga]

Hi everyone,
I woke up rather stressed yesterday morning when I started to question my choices as a parent in refusing to tutor my children for the 11+. I firmly believe tutors are invaluable when a child is struggling in a subject and their expertise can help them gain stability in an area they are weak. However, I have always wanted my children to have a natural passion for learning without the aid of a tutor. I want them to learn because they want to not because I am forcing them to. Coming for a community where tutoring is the norm I have always tried to be strong to resist it.

However, the other day I realised that all the parents I knew were specifically tutoring their children for 11+. I have spent time researching the same and a lot of evidence suggests that tutored kids do perform better. My concern is where does it stop? Children are being tutored throughout Secondary Schools too.

I know Grammar schools may require tutoring, however I have always hoped there would be more chance with the indies as many do non verbal and verbal reasoning. (I know these can be prepped for too) But recently I feel that may not happen either as in the end it is the exam that matters.

So please would any one mind sharing if they have achieved places at selective boys schools without the aid of a tutor?

Thank you

My Ds passed the 11+ without any formal tutoring. We purchased some G L assessment papers from Amazon and he did those. We really were not that worried about him gaining a place though as his older brother was at our local secondary modern school and doing fantastically.

He gained a place at the grammar but to be honest I've not been impressed with the school at all, the secondary modern really is the better of the two schools. Very glad that we did not spend any money on tutoring as I don't think in our case it would have been worth it at all.

@redyawn do you mind me asking what school your dd went to? I'm a teacher in a Bexley comp and love a non-grammar success story!

As ever, chocolatewombat hits the nail on the head. Her thread is especially relevant to the hyper competitive grammar school areas around London.

My 14 year old got into a selective independent without tutoring. I didn't want him struggling if he got in..

There are around 800 applications for 300 places at his school..

My DC is a bit older than yours but I have friends who tutored their children for entrance to a selective school but will swear blind they didn't.

Otherwise very nice people. Make of that what you will.

Thank you all so much for your messages. We are in NW London. Considering WUS, CLSB, Habs, St Albans, QE, WGSB.

Whilst I prefer not to send him to QE if we opt for the State route it seems silly not to prepare him. DH however is set against any such prep.

I wonder if anyone gained a space at QE without specific prep. As it is an English and Maths paper provided child has covered year 6 material it's hard to understand what the prepped children are able to achieve others can't.

I will continue on and do some research to help prepare them
If anyone reading this gained a space at the schools I have listed with no tutoring would love to hear.

In my opinion, everything depends of the named school. If it is a super selective, you will definitely required to be well prepared.
It does not matter where and how you will prepare your child.
Studying at home ( Bond, GL, WHSmith, Letts, Shofield & Sims, CGP, Galore and so on), at learning centre or inviting a private tutor is still the tutoring.
Top rated schools always expect to get the brightest kids. Unless your child a genius without of tutoring it gonna be difficult. Even genius should know the basics of exam techniques.
For example, in our area the average ratio for 11+ is 1:13. We are working hard, home tutoring, school’s assistance and small learning centre. Yesterday, a mock exam showed English 76% and Math 90%.. Main mistakes are not enough attention to the questions and silly technical mistakes. So, we need continue to practice. 🤓🧐😂

Prepped children will have the speed and accuracy which comes through prep and which makes the difference when the vast majority of the very many applicants are very clever. Your DS needs to beat the vast majority of these to get a place. Simply being the same as them won't be good enough, and bearing in mind most will have done intensive prep, not having or epode will put him behind.

Quite whether intensive prep or just prep is needed is open to debate. As you have lots of options and QE isn't your top choice you can afford to prep without going berserk over it - that's a nice position to be in and one many people aren't in, hence their rather manic and obsessive prepping.

That is true @ChocolateWombat we could never have afforded private education and so prepping for grammar school became my obsession for about 9 months.

Confusedmumofboys, my ds sat for, and gained a place at Westminster Under School (wonderful school) and was offered scholarships at the other schools he sat for and also passed (and is at) a super selective Grammar. He did have a group tutor weekly. A lot of the schools say 'don't tutor' etc but this is disingenuous as 95% of children sitting these tests will have had some form of tutoring, at the very least for technique/speed. Whatever they say, they can't weed out the tutored kids as all that we knew who were offered WUS etc were tutored quite heavily. Parental help/prep school help also on top. I'm not saying it can't be done but you will really need to work hard on speed and accuracy and know what each individual exam is looking for.

City is one that you might get offered without tutoring as we know boys who didn't pass even the 'normal' grammar school tests that go there and again it's a great school. The independents have more scope for looking beyond pure test results so you get a second chance to shine. QE is tough as increasing numbers sit each year (2000+ ) and it's first past the post, but if your ds gets a high score there then he's in with a very good chance at the indies of a scholarship.

We prepared from the end of year 4 - gentle build up with the creative writing (English skills are key I think and really separate the boys). Plenty of reading, push a bit to read more challenging texts. Also we used to get poetry books out and discuss them and this was a godsend as almost all of the top schools exams had a poetry element either in the test or discuss at interview. Look at Plath (easier poems such as Mirror, Mirror), Hughes, poems about love, death, ageing and nature. All of these appeared a couple of years ago. I don't think much of this was covered at ds school (and he was at a very good school). Maths - Manchester Grammar school papers were about the right level, but again speed and accuracy needed. Some concepts not taught at school - you'll need to cover the curriculum to the end of year 6.

I think if you have an exceptionally bright child (dont make the mistake of thinking top table is good enough) then parental guidance should be enough. As a ballpark figure, by year 5 ds was gaining marks 137-141 in his CATS tests at school so we knew he was in with a good chance but even so, some of the exams were tough. I would recommend putting in for the Sutton mock tests as this will give experience of sitting in a big hall with hundreds of other children and will give you a good idea of where you're child sits academically in this cohort.
Elevenplusexams forum is your friend and best of luck.

You can't tutor for the 11+ but it is wise to prepare them for the timings and format of the exam.

of course you can tutor for the 11+

@mrspatmore thank you like many others for so kindly responding. Your post was very informative and helpful. I also felt City was the one that might be most likely to accept my son. You have been so detailed and helpful with tips which I very much appreciate. Well done to you and your son for his achievement.

I feel clear on the expectations and options. I also believe schools should not tell us not to tutor our children if they know in the end it can make a difference especially with a school like QE. I shall now scour the eleven plus forum for advice and tips. My DH (inner city state educated) is fed up of the expectation to pay for tutoring. So I shall do my prep and my best to support the boys.

When a school says it has 800 applicants for 200 places, for example, it’s a slightly false picture to assume the top 200 get in. Of the top 200, 100 might prefer somewhere else. Some children might be sitting exams for 6 schools. You don’t necessarily have to be better than the rest, you have to be as good as or better than the children that actually want that school.

The boys that go to preps until 13 and then do CE or exams for a 13 -18 school stem to have an easier time! This frantic London situation continually appals me!

@bubblesbuddy I agree and am so appalled by it too. Having grown up in London and seen the change is terrible. My son sat the City 10+ last week and just watching the faces of so many of the children was heart breaking. So young and Christmas break sacrificed. I want to pull out the system but yet from my own schooling experience also want an academic school for my eldest.

I am fortunate to be in SW Herts as I have 2 schools Parmiters and Watford Grammar which are also excellent options. I just need to get my head around the expectations of the papers so at least as many have mentioned he doesn't walk into a completely unfamiliar paper.

Didn’t employ a tutor myself for my DD - she went from a private primary with a small class in year 6 to an academic private secondary - presumed school covered things and I certainly printed off past papers of entrance exams from the schools we were applying to for her to practice primarily because as others have said it’s clearly important to practice before sitting an exam - not just the subject matter but getting used to the style of questions and gettjng used to answering / having a go at all the questions in the time set . So I’d suggest checking out and doing past papers . Depending on your current school set up you may choose to provide support yourself or get a tutor . As an aside I remember printing off maths papers and having a race with my DD to see who could get the most right in the ‘fastest time ‘ just to make it fun for her ( and to reassure myself I could still do 11 yr old Maths ! ) . Good luck .

No, and I don't know anyone else who did either. These were all girls in a private primary going to selective indies. The school prepped them for it and did a lot practice papers. The only thing we, and others did, was buy the 11+ books and work through them over the Xmas hols, just to keep the brain turning over.

I agree Bubblesbuddy and my dh was also anti tutoring but unfortunately we were bursary candidates and knew that top scores were needed so had no choice but to join the awful 11+ process as ds was particularly keen on 2-3 of the schools. Once we'd made that decision we put 120% in (and it was 'we'! I had to put in as much work as ds re; research on exam formats etc - it was truly exhausting on top of f/t working and I wouldn't like to go through it again). Hence why we needed a tutor too - for guidance. We went through 3 tutors who didn't really know their stuff before we found a very good group tutor by word of mouth. If money were no object, we'd have gone for an academic but gentle secondary school somewhere in the country!

MrsPatmore - intrigued - you say if money were no object you'd have gone for a gentle secondary school - and yet you have chosen a super selective grammar school which is the exact opposite of that?

We didn't tutor ours - they were already at a prep school, and I just worked through a few past papers with them in the term leading to the exams. it's horses for course. if you're aiming for WUS then you are on a treadmill that you've chosen to be on. As it is, mine are both at selective independents.

No need whatsoever to analyse Plath at this age IMO!

I think there are gentler day and boarding schools elsewhere. Away from London. Many preps go to 13 and some schools do very well with bright children despite less clamouring for places.

I know SW Herts fairly well. DDs great friend went to Cambridge from Parmiters. Starred first for her degree. They can teach the very brightest of the bright!

TJsAunt, unfortunately when you enquire about a bursary, you get given a yes/no 'we'll consider you' but no actual details of just how much fee remission there'll be until after the exams. In the case of WUS, it wasn't enough for us to send ds there as the fees are so high, £10,000 a term if you include, uniform, lunches, trips etc. There are no academic scholarships, only music.

There are no gentle, country schools near us sadly (in London) but surprisingly his SS Grammar has very good pastoral care so we thought we'd give it a go. He is lucky to be academic and hard working at the moment so doesn't feel much pressure but of course as he enters the teenage years, this may change!! He has completely relaxed after the 11+ but we might consider tutors again in Year 11 if he starts to struggle as I don't feel I can help much any more.

I also agree re; analysing Plath but that is exactly what came up in the WUS exam and at interview, analyse and discuss a Ted Hughes poem! Very daunting for a 10 year old but that is the level of academics expected obviously. I think it must be easier to get into WUS at 7+ as at least you wouldn't have so many hoops to jump through. Gutted though to turn the offer down.

Totally depends on the school. There are very selective schools and then there are very selective schools. and they are very different.

DD passed the CEM test for CCHS (Essex), she’s now in yr 10. Her primary school had an extra-curricular 11+ club that ran for 2 terms in yr 5 and she did some online practise using the iPad in the weeks leading up to the test (test is mid-September) She had no ‘formal’ tuition. It is possible but difficult (she just scraped in), for reference she got level 5 in English and 6 in maths and SPAG in her SATs.

I honestly can’t see you getting into any of those without tutoring. Even those at the pushiest of the Prep schools are the tutoring on top of the school’s prep. I’m afraid that if those schools are your choices then you need to play the game. It’s horrible and awful and actually fairly ridiculous but it’s NW London and there are serious amounts of parents out there who will have made it their life’s mission to get their children into those schools and the children are prepped to within an inch of their lives. You might get into somewhere like Aldenham or St Colomba’s without prep but not the ones you’ve listed. Even if your son is a total genius you’ll need to do a fair bit of work with him.