Is it harder to move TO a top set than to stay in a top set?

[whitecatsandblackcats]

My DS just started in year 7. He didn't sit SATS (yrs 5&6 at a private school) so from the school's point of view he is 'no data'.

So he has been put into middle sets (he was in top sets at both his state primary and private primary).

School have assured me that they will continue to do baseline tests all through year 7 (and beyond) and that if results are appropriate, children can move sets. The tests are the same for all sets and are apparently designed to test skills rather than content knowledge.

But if the top set children are working at a faster pace with more challenging work, surely they are better equipped (better educated) to get higher grades in the tests. So from that it seems to me that it would be easier for a top set child to maintain a top set place than it would be for a middle set child to gain a top set place. So from that it seems to me that it puts these 'no data' children at a disadvantage.

Plus there is the fact that if they run out of top set places for any borderline children, I assume some will need to stay in the middle set (and then not be challenged as much which I assume would result in potentially lower grades than they are capable of).

Am I correct or is there something I'm missing? I'd be particularly keen to hear from teachers on this as well as parents.

At my DD's school there is overlap between sets, as some child do better being bottom of a higher set (for the challenge) and others need the confidence of being top of a lower set.

But broadly speaking I think the top of set 2 will be given as extension work the same stuff that the main set 1 is given as mainline work.
They get the same content but slightly less exposure to the harder type questions.

If I look at the tests my DD sits, her set (set 3/5) does the same test as set 1. There is only a very small amount of stuff on any test she hasn't actually covered, but some questions are conceptually too hard for her.

So it seems to me that a capable pupil in a lower set could happily shine in a test just by being able to apply the knowledge they have been given.

Certainly my elder DD started in set 7, and by the time she was in y11 she was in set 3. Although I helped her at home, I didn't teach her 'extra' stuff over and above classwork. So in our school at least set moving was very possible.

All children in all sets should be appropriately challenged. A good school will do this.

So, I guess what I am trying to say is don't worry about what number set your DS is in, but rather whether he is being appropriately challenged in his lessons. If he isn't being challenged then he should ask for extension work. If he regularly can't get extension work and is feeling it is all too easy, then contact the school.

This depends on the school, so ask them.

In our town there are two comps, one sets and streams in y7 , and then does not move kids. The other school moves kids all the time, even in y11 (double or triple science decision made in October of y11!)

My son went from private (no sats) to the second state school, and has been moved up and down over the years. It motivated him to try harder, so he'd get into higher sets for subjects he loved (and bombing out to bottom set for subjects he hated).

Don't worry too much,it is in the interest of the school to have the right kids in the right sets. Maybe discuss your concerns with his tutor/HoY

My DD has also started year 7 this year and the school have done their own tests in addition to the SATs. They have set for a few subjects now.

Certainly in juniors the different maths sets covered the same topics, but the more able students would do it in greater depth.

I think you've posted about this before OP. I might have mentioned then (or on a similar thread) that secondary school is a much bigger pool of fish than primary.

Hi, The secondary school my DDs attend, the maths exam were the same for all the sets, at least for set 1,2 and 3 out of 4 and students would move up or down set depending on the results and how they would work during class. These was for Y7 to Y9. Once Y10 started, I think, sets were more fixed, students didn't move so frequently, but it will still happen.

DS has moved between sets pretty much every year and sometimes during the year - both up and down.

It's also worth saying that I think the school has changed the way they organise sets pretty much every year, so this might happen with your DS: one year they timetabled in groups of 3; the next year they had 4 higher and 4 lower groups (but all higher groups of equal ability; all lower of equal ability); the next year they had a straight 1-8; next year they had top 2, next 2 ...

I guess there comes a point (if you're in a lower set) where you haven't covered enough work for the higher maths paper, but the time for that is a long way off November in Y7 ...

Are you sure the top set actually cover more things? They may go faster but extend sideways? Certainly at DC's school when they have assessments, every group sits the same test (and e.g. when DS was in Set 3, he was getting higher scores than DC in Set 1)

Personally I would stop fixating on sets (which school hate) and frame any questions in terms of your DS being adequately challenged and being on a path that means he is taught all the material for a Level 9 at GCSE (which I guess is your ultimate concern, though they may think you are bonkers for bringing it up so early).

My DD fidn’t Sit SATS but the primary school obviously gave her new school teacher assessments or something because she’s in top sets.

I was middle set for maths but quite clearly should have been top as I aced all tests getting 100% - there wasn’t room for me in the top set apparently so I could only get a B at GCSE despite getting 99%in the exam. Consequently I did struggle to do the A level because the top set kids had learnt differently and slightly more.
As a result I asked about this when looking at schools and ade sure that even in a lower set they were all afforded the opportunity to get high grades.

We are having this issue - DD went to grammar last year - got 120/120/114 in SATS - entered comp in y8 - they are treating her as no data and have put her in middle sets for 3 subjects. 2 of these she was above average result for grammar, one top of year, one around 10 percentage points higher, 34% of grammar results are 9s. School refusing to budge at present saying top sets are full, she will be put were space is. If I had known this would happen she wouldn't have gone to this school.

Feel for you but not sure what you can do about it other than keep raising it or move schools, DD is learning nothing.

I don't agree with kids being put in middle set because they have no data. My dd didn't do SATs and the school used their own tests that they did in the first month to put her in the top set a month into school. If dd's school can do it so can others.

Thanks for all the various views.

Penguinsetpandas - agree that there is not much I can do other than move schools. That is something I could look into but it would be a massive pain and might not even be possible. Being nosy why did your DD move from the grammar to the comp?

MarsInTheDyson I agree that surely this can be done. The whole experience has made me mistrustful of the school (if this is their attitude to this what other stuff could be wrong).

Cats She moved from grammar as she was very unhappy there and social life has gone from non-existant to great and she's happier but education is going down the pan. I expected a drop and school and I warned her to expect a drop but never did I think she would be put in middle sets due to no data. I'm looking at other schools but its so much hassle and best ones are full I don't want to go down that route lightly and without seeing if a solution can be found first.

Surely you wait and see if the school actually do what they say they are going to (ongoing baseline tests and potentially DC moving sets) before you decide not to trust the school? I know it seems like a big deal at the moment, but he's in the first term of Y7 where there is a lot of recap anyway - it really won't make any difference to his long term prospects.

You are doing a lot of assuming.

A middle set seems completely sensible when they have no data, a child in the middle set is not going to be overwhelmed if the set is too high for them and conversely the work is not going to be too easy if he should be in the top set.

Also how much difference is there between sets? If a school has 200 year 7 pupils then there could well be 6 groups of students but only 3 sets ie 2 groups are actually the same set.

There is a lot of building strong foundations in year 7 and pupils are also getting used to the school, new rules, more homework, more teachers. Because of this some schools do not set at all in year 7.

Back in my day, just after the dinosaurs roamed the earth there were 5 sets for maths and English from what is now year 8 to year 11. In practice the top two sets both did O Level, the next two did CSE and the bottom group may have been entered for a different qualification.

RedSky hopefully you are right.

Whether it is rational or irrational, the way I feel about the school is unfortunately just quite negative. I wish I could unfeel it and magically feel positive about it!

Before he joined we missed the open evening (cause they're usually all in Sept but this school had theirs in July) so just had the open morning - I didn't like the 'feel' of the school at all but DS had friends going there plus the school does well on all the official tables / results etc.

I wanted him to go to another school where his older sibling is but he didn't get a place there. I LOVE that other school so I suppose they are being unfavourably compared.

My daughter has done two assessments already. One baseline test and one after half term covering topics covered to date. She is is the top set and has stayed there (but she did come 3rd in the class in the baseline). There has been some movement in the top set. 5 or 6 were moved up and a similar number moved down.

sashh - I'd agree if there actually was no data - but my son does have exam results and sets etc from the previous school - it's just that this new school says it doesn't count because it doesn't match the data from other children's schools and can't be put into their computer systems.
But it's not like someone with a brain can't look at it and see what his previous levels where and where he should be set. It's proper 'computer says no' type stuff.

The school can't meaningfully compare exam and set data from a school that may not even have taught the standard Y6 curriculum. What they can do, and what they have told you they will do, is to continue to assess him in class and compare him against the rest of the cohort and re-assess whether he needs to be in a different set.

Remember your DC will not be the only one potentially in the "wrong" set: other children will not have taken SATs and children that did take SATs may have over or underperfomed relative to their ability or been heavily tutored or been to schools that are exam factories. The school has to unravel all this.

As you've said yourself, I think you just don't like the school and are not prepared to give it a chance. Also you are very fixated on your DS being in top sets. if your DS is genuinely in too low a set and if he consistently shows this by his performance in class, homework, tests and by asking for more challenging work when he completes the "normal"work, then school will notice this. Even then he may not be moved up, if it's deemed he needs to stay where he is for some other reason (my DS was kept in a lower set because although he did well in assessments he couldn't be bothered most of the rest of the time). As long as (at this stage) his progress is not limited by what set he is in, there really isn't a problem.

I think this 'no data' thing is a bit lazy. At most secondary school round here they test all the incoming year 7s anyway to make their own mind up, and failing that they've got the teacher's report from the previous school to go on. Besides, they've been teaching him for over half a term now so must have formed some impression of how good he is!

But to answer your question, I do think it is harder to move up than stay up. This is because to justify making the move, they have to actually be consistently performing better than the weaker kids in the higher set, not simply the same.

At DDs' school there is a fair bit of movement in maths sets at the start of each academic year (based on the previous summer exams) but not really in the middle of the year. And some of the sets are the same level.

When did they set the children? At dd's school as i mentioned they set them after a month which gives them enough time to do their own tests and put the no data children in the correct set. Children are only moved again at the end of the year rather than bobbing in and out of sets throughout the year.

it's just that this new school says it doesn't count because it doesn't match the data from other children's schools and can't be put into their computer systems.

Which is true, your son could have done A Level standard maths but on a different curriculum but it could not be input into the system.

There is also their progress 8 score to consider, assuming he does well he will be good for their score, but they can't risk starting him at a high level.

Yes it should not mean anything, but it does.

People who didn't do sats won't be included in the progress 8 score.

At my DD's school there is overlap between sets, as some child do better being bottom of a higher set (for the challenge) and others need the confidence of being top of a lower set.

That's how it's tended to work in every school that I've worked in (when sets were used).

I think the thing many people have to realise is that much as many folk want their child to be in top set, there's only so many places in the top set and really for a hard working student there's very little difference between set 1 and 2.

I've taught students in middle sets and they've got A/A*/7/8/9. It's not like I thought 'oh your target grade is a B so I won't teach you half the course'.

I think it can often be hard to break into higher sets as for someone to move up, someone else has to move down and schools are much less keen to do this.

Michaelah, that is not true for the 2 schools my kids are at, if a kid is in the top set but struggled to keep up, it is not good for the kid, the class OR the teacher, so kids are moved down as well as up. My kids have been moved down, and that has been the right decision for those subjects. (Often middle/bottom sets are smaller and also get those teachers who are good with those sets)

I think problem comes when the person in too set is perfectly happy thank you but someone in set 2 does much better in exams. What then?