Is it harder to move TO a top set than to stay in a top set?

[whitecatsandblackcats]

My DS just started in year 7. He didn't sit SATS (yrs 5&6 at a private school) so from the school's point of view he is 'no data'.

So he has been put into middle sets (he was in top sets at both his state primary and private primary).

School have assured me that they will continue to do baseline tests all through year 7 (and beyond) and that if results are appropriate, children can move sets. The tests are the same for all sets and are apparently designed to test skills rather than content knowledge.

But if the top set children are working at a faster pace with more challenging work, surely they are better equipped (better educated) to get higher grades in the tests. So from that it seems to me that it would be easier for a top set child to maintain a top set place than it would be for a middle set child to gain a top set place. So from that it seems to me that it puts these 'no data' children at a disadvantage.

Plus there is the fact that if they run out of top set places for any borderline children, I assume some will need to stay in the middle set (and then not be challenged as much which I assume would result in potentially lower grades than they are capable of).

Am I correct or is there something I'm missing? I'd be particularly keen to hear from teachers on this as well as parents.

Gosh - sorry about the typos. “Top set” etc

Many moons ago when I was at school and some schools seemed to adopt a different style of teaching, I moved from a primary to senior school. In my primary school I had been accelerated but then to align with my senior school did one year twice. In some baseline tests they did I was put in the top set for all subjects except maths where I was bottom set (I am not sure what they didn’t teach at my school but there were big gaps.). Anyway after a year, I had managed to transfer all the way up to top set. The point being don’t worry about it.

Did they really base the sets on just the SATS results? If so, that is super lazy but there will also be huge overlap between sets and i'm sure a re-jigging in the new year. That is usual in yr7.

Yr7 is generally consolidation work anyway. I'd get him some KS3 workbooks and get him doing extra prep.

A good teacher will teach the middle set all they need to know to get 7, 8 and even 9, if the kids are disciplined enough to listen. But unfortunately there will be many scenarios where there is a lack of good teachers and the general ability of mmiddle set might be so low that teaching will end up being geared towards 4, 5, and 6. I guess you will need to investigate, look at their work sheets and gauge what parts of the curriculum they are covering, at what speed and in which depth. If you feel there are gaps, you could consider tutoring. Stories like yours make me very reluctant to consider state after time in private. Simply sayong: 'no data' smacks a wee bit about discrimination of the perceived posh. I assume your private school did some form of CAT tests that could be used by new school?

Has he done CATs tests this year? There is also the possibility that he is in the right set and is not amongst the cleverest in the school ...

He did CAT tests at the previous school but the new school won't take these into account.

Pieceofpurple you're right that there's the possibility he's in the right set - the frustration for me is that I feel I don't trust their judgement as every other child has been set by SATS data and my child has been set by just plonking him in the middle sets (guesswork).

Someone mentioned that I'm a bit fixated on the top set - just want to point out that with my other DS I was on the phone to their maths teacher in term 1 to get him moved down a set as he couldn't keep up and was overwhelmed. All I want is to feel confident that my kids are in the right place for them to fulfil their potential. DS2 is brighter than DS1 but lacks self-confidence and is all too ready to believe that he's not good. It's frustrating to watch as a parent and probably makes me a bit more angsty about his education than DS1s.

In English it's bands rather than sets - there's a top class and a bottom class and then everyone else is in middle classes. In maths its sets.

I've been told that it'll all work itself out over the course of year 7 so I need to find some patience I suppose and stop worrying (wish I could stop worrying!). Hopefully by the end of year 7 I'll feel more confident that he's in the right set or band for him. The other classes are mixed ability anyway so it's only English and Maths.

Is he finding the work too easy? Has he had an assessment in maths yet?
In our school sets are changed every half term if necessary, following assessments, in maths and English.

Unfortunately it is partly down to the way schools are assessed. If you can do a thought experiment and imagine that there is another child in the school who is at the exactly same level as your ds but has SATs results. The school will be judged on their progress 8 score by how much the other child has progressed between SATs and GCSEs. How much your ds progresses between now and GCSEs will of course be relevant to you and ds, plus will contribute to their GCSE headlines but not progress 8. They have more motivation in keeping the 'identical' child in a higher set than your ds. Hopefully over time your ds will prove that he is actually ahead of many of those in the top set and will move ahead. It isn't fair but also not really the fault of the school who are maximising their results. It is a by-product of the government induced competition in schools and tactics such as this are partly why some schools are on paper better than others because they play a more strategic game.

shouldwestayorshouldwego that is so depressing. But logical.

The good thing about the private schools is that they don't have to worry about this government measurement nonsense (and also the government isn't cutting their funding). Effing government ruining everything!

OP. I don't think you have really answered yet.
Is your DS saying he is not being challenged in his set?
Is he getting all the work done quickly and correctly?
Is he asking for extension work and completing that too?

shouldwestayorshouldwego
Or perhaps more logically, they have lots of students who are comparable and there's more than enough students to fill a top set so why would they give a place up to someone they have no idea of their ability? When the inevitable 'why isn't my child in top set?' complaints come in, its easy to say scores X to Y in maths for KS2 were top set.

There isn't a magic cut off where the set you're in stops you getting high grades unless it's a tiered subject where you're in for foundation tier and thats at year 10/11.

Not being in top set won't stop a child getting 7s 8s or 9s.

I agree with teen's questions.

Why would they have no idea of ability unless they set on day 1? Ours set after they've had time to test them, so dd was put in the correct set despite having no sat results.

That's for Maths. English they don't set til year 8 so they have longer to assess them

MarysInTheDyson
They can use the KS2 SATS for most students to get initial groups and then can move later based on class performance and internal exams.
The OP's child doesn't have a sats score so it makes no logical sense for the school to put him into top set over othet students where they do have a measure of ability (albeit an imperfect one).

It's probably worth pointing out that in DC's school - good comp - that even by GCSE not all the 9s came from the top set.

IME from observation, a lot of Year 7 work is consolidation - to accommodate children coming from different schools, to accommodate the 'transfer between schools' dip as children adjusty to secondary, to accommodate different levels of 'teaching to the test' for SATs that may make understanding weaker than marks suggest, sometimes because secondary teachers haven't adjusted fully to the post-2014 primary maths curriculum and simply start teaching from a lower point than is entirely necessary.

So if your child is in a middle set for Year 7, that's not by any means a disaster, as they are unlikely to be missing out on huge new learning - and if they continue to work hard, maintain 100% accuracy in everything, complete class work and homework to their highest standard and prepare for any tests, they will move up. Even if they don't move up to 'the very highest set', then this still means they can attain the very highest marks in GCSE.

[Sorry, to be clear, talking about Maths. Their school doesn't set for maths until October half term - to allow for teacher observation and internal maths tests as well as SATs / CATs to be used for setting - nor for english until Year 8]

Or perhaps more logically, they have lots of students who are comparable and there's more than enough students to fill a top set so why would they give a place up to someone they have no idea of their ability?

Another good point. One comfort to draw is that there are likely to be other children in similar positions who might also enjoy challenging work in the middle set. Sometimes middle sets have teachers who will be skilled at really progressing students my dc has found that a slightly lower set means that learning is really consolidated rather than rushed through. The middle sets are where some of the progress8 leaps are made so whereas in upper sets the teachers are battling not to let anyone fall behind, in middle sets some of the great statistical progresses can be made. A student going from a 100 on SATs to a grade 8 at GCSE will look better for a school than a child with 115 getting a grade 8.

He may also gain more self confidence from being towards the top of his group. Being in the top set can be stressful in case he goes down a set. It might be an opportunity to build confidence.

TeenTimesTwo yes he's asking for extension work and getting through that quickly, easily and accurately. He's not finding the work challenging enough in numerous subjects, though only Maths and English are set anyway. He's doing topics he's already done at the previous school and is finding his lessons boring and easy. Hence my worries. We have parents evening coming up in December so I will make sure I talk to the individual subject teachers about extension work.

MaisyPops not sure why you think they have no idea of his ability? He has CAT scores from his previous school and his end of year exam scores - both come with the class average and show that he was way above that average.

cantkeepawayforever that's very reassuring to hear that not all 9s come from the top set, thank you.

MaisyPops not sure why you think they have no idea of his ability? He has CAT scores from his previous school and his end of year exam scores - both come with the class average and show that he was way above that average.
Neither of those allow them to compare him to the rest of the cohort in his current school.
Plus secondaries routinely get calls from parents complaining because their child was top in primary / on the highest table etc. Suddenly in a year of 200-250 being on the top table or being high in primary doesn't translate automatically to being in the top 30 in the year.

Someone might be a talented athlete and always picked for sport at primary but it doesn't mean they'll be top in a bigger cohort. Same for music or drama or academic subjects.

If he is doing well, consistently outperforming those in a higher set then when sets get reviewed he will get moved up. There's nothing wrong with what they've done as an initial group.

MaisyPops
Our school teaches in mixed ability form groups for the first month while they test them and then set them after that so kids without SATs are put in the correct set. Seems a sensible system to me.

Maisy is right that the school lacks COMPARABLE date about his ability.

'115 in Maths SATs' is a nationally accepted benchmark. (Not perfect, but national, and can be used to rank / group children of approximately the same scores across different schools: imperfectly, but good enough for a first pass)

'Well above average in school internal exams' can't be compared with this benchmark. If the school exams were easy, or the class generally of low ability, above average for the class could in fact be below national average. Orr it could represent performance in the top couple of centiles in the country. It's just not possible to say.

Better, theerfroe, to start a child in a mioddle set and move them up based on actual operformance than to hazard a guess as to 'above average in a specific school test' might mean when compared with SATs and risk having to rapidly move a child down from a higher set.

(In a particularly extreme example of a child moving between schools, a child transferred into a class I once taught from a local private primary. 'She's doing really well, near the top of the class in our tests', we were told, so was given standard class work to start off with. Within a week, she was on the SEN list in the state primary, and was receiving lots of interventions to bring her up to even the bottom level within the class, while meanwhile completing highly differentiated work. In the absence of comparable data, it is always advisable to be cautious)

MarysInTheDyson
That only works if the timetable is set up to have the whole year on for certain subjects at the same time and that's not always possible.
I've seen a few different ways of doing things and concluded that timetabling is complex so schools have the best set up they can for their curriculum and staffing.

Ok. I guess we got lucky

I think in general i would agree with the statement in the OP's title. Although there is some fluidity in setting, there is often resistance to moving down, especially in affluent areas from parents - so actually remaining in a top set can be be easier than moving up. Non some sense you have to more than prove yourself to move up, because when spaces are tight and too sets already really too large, usually someone must move down for someone else to move up.

Some schools operate a top set and then the rest are mixed ability because evidence seems to suggest that setting really only benefits the very high fliers. That's all well and good, but for those who just miss out on that set, getting into it at a later date is probably extremely hard as that top set will be racing ahead compared to the other groups.

I would say that if you can get into the top set at the start, it's much more straightforward. Yes you do have to keep performing to remain there and being in the bottom one or two and really struggling isn't fun at all, but as long as you are doing okay, it will probably be fine. Of course it is true that in lots of schools people get top grades from other sets too and the same work is covered. I would want to receive data about that for the school in question if Inwas a parent and my child who was able wasn't in the top set - because if the grades achieved by the next set down don't include many or any top grades, it would suggest opportunities might be more limited.

In some academic schools such as GS you find that pretty much everyone gets 9/8 with a number if 7s and the occasional 6. Clearly being in even the bottom set in such a school isn't really a hindrance to success as even bottom set students achieve 8s and 9s, but perhaps just move at a slightly slower pace and are not natural mathematicians, but perfectly capable.

Interestingly, what happens to those guys at A Level choice times is worth looking at. In all schools and perhaps in GS particularly, there will be kids who scrape into the 7/8/9 in Maths due to good teaching and an ability to study and learn, rather than real mathematical ability. Some of those, despite their good GCSE grade are absolutely not natural mathematicians or really suited for A Level. Often they know it themselves, but sometimes the grade fools them and it can be difficult for the school to advise them about best A Level choices, when the maths teachers know that A Level Mathis isn't likely to result in a B or above. Of course in other schools, the entry requirements are all about bums on seats and all kinds of students will be admitted into Maths A Level, who have little chance of a high grade and would probably do better in another subject - people with 6s and 5s are doing it and even sometimes further maths too.