Y7 (11) DS being incredibly oblivious and naive...

[obliviousboy]

DS has just started new school. He is outgoing, sporty and loves his friends. He's also very empathetic and caring - he can't ignore anyone who is upset or feeling sad. He doesn't sound unpopular one, does he? However, he has tendency to be rejected by his peers.. I don't know what it is. It could be because of his immaturity in some areas. He is a summer born, just to add more info.

I have a few concerns over his social issues, but what's bothering me most is that he doesn't seem to be aware of any negativity around him. For instance, when someone is obviously very mean to him, he doesn't realise it and says nice things about them, and even refers them as a good friend. This happened at primary school too. Some people told me DS was being bullied or teased, yet DS didn't seem to know about it and kept telling me they were kind, then many months or even a year later he realised they were actually mean!

Today he went to school happily, telling me how nice all other boys were. But I happened to talk to a school staff and now I know the reality is not what he seems to think! No one wanted to pair up with him in a class, etc. He seems to be incredibly oblivious... This naivety worries me a lot.

Now, knowing what happened at primary school is happening again at new school, I am wondering if there is any unseen problem on DS's side, and worrying if it'll end up shadowing his sunny nature... Is there anything I can do to help the situation? Should I consider talking to SEN (no suggestion from school)? Any advice and suggestions would be greatly appreciated...

Hi Op, this is not that uncommon - a sort of 'unworldly' innocent approach which means that the dc doesn't have the same inner sense that many of us do that someone else is being dismissive, unkind, etc - and that can be so even when it seems incredibly obvious to everyone else!

It is quite difficult to address, because as a dparent you don't necessarily want to be the one to be negative and point out that actually the other dc is not that nice. Maybe a way forward is to discuss in general terms what a friend is, and should and shouldn't do, and gently introduce the idea that particular actions are not nice. You say your dc did eventually realise months later that other dc had been mean, so he does have the capacity to recognise that.

I think that particular issue - being too trusting, basically - does tend to improve during the teenage years, but unfortunately that is sometimes due to bitter experience! Whereas the ideal is to help the dc protect himself against unpleasant people earlier on. As for the wider social skills issues you mention (interjecting in conversations and so on) , I'd include those in your discussion at the meeting with the school and see what they suggest to help.

Interesting to read that this - excessive trustingness, naivety - can be associated with dyspraxia. I hadn't heard of that link before.

That is interesting perverse - in a way it doesn't matter what the label is, the difficulty for the dc is that they can't 'sense' when someone is unfriendly, blanking, hostile, eye-rolling etc. That is all quite consistent with being sociable, and being able to concentrate, I think - and is something that some dc do need help with, whatever the label.

There are some books for dc, such as those directed at those with ASD/aspergers (I know it's not called that any more) about how to read body language, which might be useful - lots on amazon. And just the general books for dc about 'what makes a good friend and how to be one' can help a dc recognise the people to avoid! Not always easy to persuade the dc to read them though!

Just got a reply from school. School nurse or SENCO would be in touch with me for a update shortly.

DS seems to be chatting a lot with the gentle one. Sadly I cannot be pleased by that just yet as I am not sure if the other boy is in the same term as DS. Potentially DS can be annoying him with endless chatting... I can see how DS is interacting with this boy and also I can observe his body language to see if he's enjoying DS's company or actually bring annoyed this Friday when I visit the school.

Everincreasing, when you say it's not uncommon, you mean it's not uncommon to be this naive and awkward socially at this age and it's something they may improve as they learn in most cases? I'm not going to rule out any potential condition but just like to know if it can happen for dcs without any spectrum and that's actually not so uncommon.

I don’t have much of any use to add other than to say my ds is 11 and has always been ‘quirky’. He’s been assessed by OT twice and found to have traits of dyspraxia but no out and our diagnosis. He’s the youngest in his year and has just started high school although he’s 12 in December because of how school years work here.

He’s definitely ‘younger’ than his friends in some ways like he has no clue about what’s cool or not and he doesn’t care either. He’s quite geeky and into a lot of things I’m sure some of his peers would consider boring. He doesn’t seem to know that people will think him odd or geeky though and I’m not sure that really matters?

He does have quite a few friends but theyve definitely thinned out since starting high school just naturally.

He’s also really sporty and does like games like fortnite. He and his friends are regularly falling out playing it though - I pretty much ignore it because it’s just drama over nothing and they are over it quickly. I’m surprised to hear they won’t play with your son because he isn’t good enough - I’ve never heard of this with ds and friends and I wouldn’t be happy if I knew ds was excluding someone.

Like I say I’m probably waffling and of no use but thought I’d let you know your ds isn’t the only slightly unusual 11 year old around and I don’t think a lot of what I sometimes view as a problem necessarily IS one if he’s happy.

Hi obliviousboy! I do feel for you! And I feel for your son, too.

It really is worth asking his new school's SENCO to monitor him gently. It may be delayed social development which he will catch up, with a little support along the lines already suggested. Or it may be something closer to a learning condition, precisely the sort of challenge the SENCO and their staff should be able to help with in the long term.

I have worked in Special Needs in schools and it sounds, prima facie, like the latter but I really am not an expert, just someone who has observed a range of challenges in Year 7 kids over some years.

You can Private Message me if you wish.

thaegumathteth, thanks for sharing your thoughts. The boy who excluded DS online isn't school friend. They used to go to the same primary school but now at different school. One day DS found him online and they played together for a while, happily chatting and laughing. DS didn't have a chance to play the game again for the next few days so he couldn't wait to switch on his PS4 when he finally had time to play, telling me the boy would be on so they would be playing together again. DS exchanged some words with him but they didn't play together after all. He didn't tell me why and I didn't really think much of it. A few weeks later, I casually asked him why he didn't play with the boy anymore as he'd been playing alone, then DS told me he was removed from the group because he wasn't good enough. I said, 'that's not nice', but he defended his friend telling me because DS was so rubbish and the boy told him he could be back in the group once he got 50 wins hinting he wasn't excluded unfairly and he was still welcomed (but only if he won 50 times! and he's currently got only one win..). Generally, he doesn't like to discuss how he's been treated by others, as if he doesn't like me to know he's having difficulties with making friends. He only tells me good news usually.

JB2013, thank you so much for your post. I am still half hoping it would be just delayed social development, but you think it's more like he may have a leaning condition... I know you can't say anything firmly as you don't know my son. But as it's the word from someone who has observed a range of challenges in Year 7 kids over some years, I couldn't take the comment lightly. Would you mind sharing more of your thought? What do you think it is? Does he sound like he needs professional help? Oh, of course, he does. No matter if he has a condition or not, it's clear he's struggling. I can't believe I left this unaided for such a long time, even though there were tell-tale signs all the way through. I was even telling him off quite strictly. He was in tears, and he sometimes said he would like to be good but he wouldn't know how and why he was like that. Sorry, I feel so so low...

I just wanted to add that your lovely son sounds like a wonderful child. I have found my son in tears on a few occasions because his so called friends have blocked him from Fortnite for not being good enough so it does seem to be a common theme that boys can turn mean where this game is involved. I would also concur with others that your son sounds like he might have traits of Asperger. I hope the school gives you more support and that your son can find like-minded chums through following his passions and interests within and outside of school. Good luck with everything.

Another one here with someone like you son. Ds8 appears young in his ways versus his peers and while good at sports and academically, he is definitely behind socially. His speech is immature and while I don't think he is bullied, he is ignored a bit I think which he doesn't seem to notice. Breaks my heart abs would love to
Help him but don't know how. Sorry to sabotage your thread but just wanted you to know that you are not alone.

Bickleymumma, thanks for your post. Somehow it's comforting to know blocking in fortnite happens quite commonly, so it's not only DS's case. But to your DS... It's terrible when it happens to your own child. Though I'm glad DS is the receiving end. I wouldn't want him to be the one who blocks friends. Thanks for your good wishes. Hopefully I can get a update from school soon.

Amaried, to you and your lovely DS. It's nice to know we are not alone, though we like our children to be just happy. Stay here if it helps. You might pick great advice from others.

Obliviousboy, couldn't read and go. I thought I would share my experience. My DS is autistic. He is impulsive, immature, clumsy and disorganised, but highly academic, musical and articulate. He is good-natured, "sociable" and "likes everyone". He is good-natured and trusting. Reading social cues or other people's minds, however, doesn't always come natural to him. This leads him to be easily manipulated and to become a victim of cruel jokes. There have been minor incidents where DS was totally unaware that he was being used or made fun of. Luckily for DS, his close friends are lovely and such incidents happened outside his friendship group, and they were easily manageable. Whenever I encounter or hear any social useful situations/scenarios, I try to get him to think if you can trust this person, or what is his motivation. If he becomes defensive about his own situation, I try a story that doesn't involve him another time. (I have to admit that DS is generally optimistic and happy BECAUSE he doesn't read too much into others' thoughts or actions. Two sides of the same coin!)

No one can give you a definite answer here as to your concern about possible special needs, but it appears that he needs help and guidance in particular aspects of social skills. It's worth making all the key persons at school (SENCo, or Head of Year or Pastoral Manager?) aware of his struggles and vulnerability. A good school will keep an eye on him and supports him. Good luck to your meeting with the school!

DS1 was very much like this and he has dyspraxia. He did seem to have matured a lot during Y5/6 and it isn't an issue now he is in Y8. Tbh the improvements came when he finally managed to make a friend at school - he really struggled before that and whilst he didn't seem upset by it it broke my heart watching other kids shrug him off and ignore him or say unkind things to him. When he made a good friend, he must have had the chance to practice interacting with a peer which helped, I think.

Interestingly, DS always had opportunities to interact with other children. I was always out and active with him, taking him to baby/toddler classes, playgroups, meeting up with other mums with kids. I was particularly friendly with a mum with two boys so we met up every week and boys were best mates at the time. But they went to different nursery and primary school so stopped meeting (though they still remember each other, and I'm still a good friend of the mum and we meet up on a regular basis without kids).

Once DS started primary school, he was hardly alone in the playground as he was always playing football or basketball or anything active with other equally active and sporty boys. He was always happy then. The teacher even told me he was popular.

However, he started crying in the night when he was Y2. He seemed to have started having some social difficulties at school. It looked totally out of his character at the time as he was always so sociable and appeared to be the centre of the big active boys. What I suspect is, when they were young, they were all so immature that DS's immaturity wasn't a problem, but as others got older and DS stayed the same, difference between him and his peers started showing. Those who were maturer probably started dismissing him.

At around Y3, he became very close to a boy who he was always a friend but as the boy wasn't as active and sporty as DS they didn't really play much. But something clicked and they got on so well and this boy is still a good friend who DS could see during school holiday (sadly they attend different school). DS also made a really good friend at a place he goes on Saturdays. DS is stopping the activity after this term so will stop seeing the boy, though hopefully they'll keep in touch.

So, it's not that DS cannot make a friend. He seems to attract certain types of DCs. Those two good friends are both highly intelligent and a bit of a loner. DS is, on the other hand, doesn't have the impression of being a loner due to his sociable nature, but weirdly he becomes more and more like his best friends, and he doesn't look as cheerful as he used to be at the new school. DS seems to like many of the boys at the new school but it's like one way love. Sometimes I hear other kids saying 'chill!' to DS. DS seems to be alerted and energetic whereas other kids at his age look a lot calmer and cooler.

I also travel with him quite a lot, and he seems to make friends easily at new places. It seems as if he can make friends easily but can't sustain the relationship by letting him go too much too early and once others learn how alerted and exhausting he is they sort of start keeping distance..?

Thank you so much for your sharing, Woventabby and Roomba.

My db was like this and years later was very pleased to get a diagnosis of dyspraxia to explain his issues! Fwiw, he was very popular with the girls as a teen - his chattiness and sweet nature seemed to go down better with the opposite sex (and the fact he's very good looking!).

That hasn't happened here yet but will see - I don't think DS would complain about girls' attention!

I'll add another notes on DS's character. While he appears to be so oblivious, he does have good self-analysing skills and says something very spot on about himself. For instance he chose to go against something explaining his tendency to get influenced by others (and he didn't want that happened on that occasion) - he explains about himself as if he's talking about the third person. Not often, but I can tell he's analysing himself quite accurately when needed. Also, while he is incredibly impulsive, he can be very sensible, and he's immature socially but very mature emotionally. For that, he seemed to impress interviewers at school entrance and auditions. He managed to demonstrate the mature side of him for that kinds.

I'm not sure if I am explaining well, but he's quite extreme and unbalanced in many ways. So depending on how much you know him, some people describe him as a totally opposite kind of child (very mature and sensible etc).

@Obliviousboy my son has dyspraxia and is very trusting and "young". Some of what you have said i can see in my child. Please feel free to PM me

Thanks you, MyCatWorksForM15. I've just PMed.