4 A levels ?

[Min3rva]

I am interested to know if there is any benefit to studying 4 subjects at A level anymore. My Dd keen to do maths and further maths but I think she'd need to have another 2 subjects as surely maths would only count as 1?

clary Maths, FM and PE doesn't sound a great combination to me (though I have no up to date knowledge). I struggle to see where that really leads?

Thankyou all for your input it really helps to identify the pros and cons.
Riot that's very useful thankyou .
Oneteen thankyou for expressing my thoughts much more eloquently.
Dr AS is something to look into though I'm pretty sure our school no longer offer it.
Ms Awesome your experience sounds particularly relevant. Dd wants to study exactly the same courses .
Noble not certain what she wants to do exactly and I'm not sure what she means by quantum computing/ engineering. I know she'd really like to be involved in new applications of 'quantum phenomena '.

Really appreciate all your help. I think we'll let her chose the college that has FM as an option as a fourth and see how it goes.

Maths and further maths are normally counted as one option block in many 6th forms so they'd pick 2 other options. The pace of further maths route geberally means it's your grade 7/8 at GCSE who would study it.

When I was in 6th form it was the norm to study in 4 blocks so further maths students did 5 a levels. Obviously times have changed since then.

If she's going to work in 'quantum phenomena' ( ) she'll probably start off with maths or physics degree, in which case FM is probably a good shout.
She can at least start four and see how she goes. DD1 is doing 4 to keep course options open and finding workload fine so far but its early days. Whereas some of her friends have already given one up, though interestingly, often not the one they thought they'd like the least.

DS is also doing 4 (not maths) but I hope he's going to drop one once he decides what he's doing for uni. Problem is he likes all of them!

Soomaa, could I ask how your ds is finding the workload with 4 and if he does not drop FM at the end of year 12, will he still do an EPQ?

Teentimestwo he is hoping to do sports science or maths or maths and PE at uni (Loughborough for example) so it's OK for that... I am just worried what if he doesn't enjoy the maths in 6th form? We are going to push for a fourth a level (biology/chemistry) at his top choice (current school so they know him) but I think it will be a struggle.

Surely tho it's better (noble??) to have 5 lessons of FMa week? One school we looked at offers ONE lesson of FM a week in yr 13!

I think those wanting to study FM should be starting with an 8 or 9 at GCSE.

Is Further Maths generally appointed less teaching time than other A levels?

Dd gets the same teaching time for FM as for other subjects (5hrs) - it just sits in one of the option blocks as with any other subject

I would recommend an 8/9 for FM too.

At my school FM has the same teaching time as other A-levels but we have had to fight hard to keep it that way. FM groups tend to be smaller than maths groups so the assumption seems to be that you can teach a smaller group the same content more quickly. This isn’t the case, it needs proper teaching. Perhaps in schools with minimal FM teaching they only expect the genius-types who can self-teach to take it, which is a shame for those great but not genius mathematicians who then lose out.

I think with an unusual combination like maths, FM and PE, I would recommend starting with 4 just to see how it pans out. Maths, FM plus physics or computing and a clear idea that this is the path they want for uni would be less concerning.

JustRichmal
It depends how its timetabled.
Some do it as a stand alone a level as a 2 year option so maths + further maths takes up 2 options.
Some do it as a maths/further maths which means covering both courses in the same time as 1 option block.

JustRichmal, for now he wants to continue all four A level and the EPQ. But he will discuss it with his form teacher at the end of the year. For now he is fine with the workload. He has enough time for his extracurricular activities and a parttime job. But time will show

At my sons school FM has the same teaching time as every other subject.

Thank you for all the replies and thank you OP for starting the thread. It seems like A level choices is a big decision to make and so soon.

I do want dd to take on too much and then feel she could have done three well but has done 4 okay, but equally I know she loves science and wants to learn. At the moment school have said she can do 4 and dd wants to do 4, but also likes the idea of an EPQ. Is the EPQ done in year 13 only or does it vary from school to school how it is taught?

We are about to have a parents evening about 6th form, but I do not want to come out of it thinking "I should have asked..."

Have A levels got harder with the new curriculum? (Particularly maths and science)

Thanks for that Noble, he will certainly only do FM if he gets 8 at GCSE. I am hoping he will at least start a fourth subject (prob biology not physics! Physics teachers pretty bobbins at his school) so if he doesn't get on with the maths he has an option. That will leave him zero frees tho :( if he goes to the best alternative FM is an extra with 2.5 lessons a week, but they offer PE with fewer lessons as so few take it so not great. He'd have a lot more frees tho haha

A-levels aren’t supposed to have become harder so the proportions of students getting each grade should be similar. They are different though, and this will have an impact on which students get which grades. We haven’t gone through maths yet, first sitting this year so I don’t know yet, but I suspect that there are lazy boys (it’s generally boys) who are coasting who would have got a kick up the backside with crap grades at AS and forced module resits who will miss out. It’s easier to brush aside poor grades when ‘it was only a mock’.

At my school you can’t take an EPQ and 4 A-levels, but you can take FM to AS and also do an EPQ.

Noble thank you for explaining. These are all options I will need to ask about at the meeting; can they drop a subject at the end of y12 and do an AS and cut it down to 3 and an then do an EPQ?

I do not think dd will know what is or is not too much until she actually starts. However Soomaa, 4 a levels, an EPQ, extra curricular activities and a part time job is quite impressive. Good luck to him

Both my sons have done M, FM and Physics at A level, plus one other subject in the lower sixth that did not result in a qualification. These subjects are absolutely fine if you want to do maths, physics, comp sci or engineering, even at the very top places. There has been no need to continue the fourth subject through upper sixth. Grade offers are made

... screen froze...on three subjects, there is no benefit to having a fourth.

But their school insisted that they start the fourth subject and keep it to the end of lower sixth as they did not want the students to limit their options too soon.

I'm very impressed, too! I could never do that. I'm not born or raised in the UK and my education stopped after primary level, so most of my kids school work is a big mystery to me.

One more question: How much time are they expected to do outside of lessons for each subject and is 5 hours a week pretty average for lesson time per subject? (Okay, 2 questions)

When we were looking the rule of thumb seemed to be about the same amount outside lessons as inside. It might not be set homework, they should spend time doing practice questions, reading round the topic or whatever.

What hasn't been mentioned yet is EPQs ...

EPQs run differently at different colleges and 6th forms.
They can be really interesting and useful. Equally they can be a black hole for time and a pain to supervise if you get a student who doesn't buy into the whole process.
My advice on EPQ is do it as a nice extra to stand out if you are going to buy into the whole process of planning and evaluation. If you've no interest in the whole learning and drafting process then don't bother.