For DD who wants to study medicine- physics or History as 4?

[princ3ssconsuelabananahammock]

My dd is set on studying medicine and is currently considering A level options as is in year 11. She knows for sure she wants to do maths, biology and chemistry but is struggling with the last gap. She first thought of taking physics AS but is now exploring the idea of history. She loves history and is soso good at it but the problem is that it’s no longer offered as an AS anymore so can only choose the full A level. She’s scared that 4 a levels is too heavy a workload and she won’t be able to perform as well but is also conflicted as she really loves history (and much prefers it to physics) What do you think she should do?

Interesting article oneteen. My DD had A level class of 25 but her friend had 5. Mine is so used to self study and not having a teacher to help which I suppose is quite a useful life skill.

Speaking from a medical point of view- physics.

Regarding the history -take some free online courses, do some summer schools on history, explore UK history -and abroad as an interest and discuss on UCAS form.
www.open.edu/openlearn/history-the-arts/history/social-economic-history/the-african-diaspora-archaeological-perspective/content-section-0?active-tab=description-tab
M,B,P & C. Interesting Biology is not seen as important as Physics for medicine.

I did dentistry and not medicine, physics would be better than history it certainly helps with radiology, optics also quite a bit of maths with A level physics as she is doing maths already that part will be easy, also doing maths makes the study of statistics easier a knowledge of stats is essential for understanding research and epidemiology

it is more than 25 years since I graduated and micro surgery etc are being used more than ever but there was not much essay writing for opinions and reflection

bertielab - a number of medical schools are now actually stating that one of the A levels must be Biology...but I dont think any actually ask for Physics.

Schools, including known 'name' academic private schools are switching to 3 A levels (4 only for double maths or a home language).

Universities are adapting to that, as they have no choice.

For medicine, you really do need chemistry, you might need biology and maths or physics are highly desirable. That does not leave much room for a humanity - other than via EPQ.

And EPQ can be better as I know Sheffield will accept AAB if you have an A/A* in your EPQ. My DD said it was helpful in learning research skills

"the core objectives remain the same, i.e. to select the best medical students to provide a world-class health care system for now and the future."

(ha!) As someone who is part of the selection machine that isn't what it feels like we're doing at all.

It feels More like... we're selecting the students most likely to be reliably competent & last the whole 5-6 years on our course. Given we have limited number of places, the machine also tries to grab the ones with relatively higher grades.

Given more funded places, we would accept more students (domestic &/or international). I don't even know what that word 'best' means to the poster who wrote it (or to anyone else).

World class? More like battle for survival under immense strain, sadly.

Sorry, I’m going to state again - doing a couple of sciences in the stipulated areas for the school she is interested in and then another science or the humanity she is interested in and working hard, with self-direction, and doing well are all very good preparation for managing medicine.

Like Titchy - I am keen to dispel a few myths and not put people off medicine!

Of course, doing 3 sciences is absolutely fine and physics will be useful. But it’s still performance in chemistry that’s a better predictor for performance in medicine.

Again, check entry requirements carefully. Go to open days and ask relavant questions. Medical education, including admissions, changes rapidly. 7-8 years ago, student numbers were capped so this and a number of other factors impacted on selection and admissions. The cap has been eased and there have been some extra places added into the system, so for 19/20 there will be changes and it is worth checking afresh for applications for the next 1-4 years.

Gwynfluff, I agree chemistry is important. As far as I can tell biology is less so as it is effectively taught again. DD claims if her peers are coming unstuck, it is on the maths. There is quite a lot of quantitative content, no problem for those with a good A level, but potentially tricky for those without.

She says very few on her course have physics, so knowledge is not assumed, though nice to have. Her fifth is electronics which again has apparently proved useful- - I am not sure how - though it was more to help keep doors open for medical engineering had she not been offered a medicine place.

I would also disagree with mumsneedwine. It seems pretty rare that someone fails to make the grade for medical school. The much bigger problem is not getting offered a place in the first instance. DDs school would warn that they expected to have at least a couple with 4xA* predictions each year who would end up without offers. This was the case in DDs year. Interestingly the numbers from her school applying this year have apparently fallen through the floor. My best guess is too many hurdles and too much risk. There are plenty of other courses happy to take bright applicants. Or perhaps some useful realism. DD, starting her second year, says several of her med school peers have started to wonder whether they are on the right course.

Out of the 10 who got offers at my DDs old school, 4 failed to make their offers. 2 went into clearing and 2 are retaking. I agree that getting the offers is harder and lots don't get any, which is tough for kids who would probably all make good doctors. The cap still exists, it's just a few places more for most medical schools. And the brand new schools look great. It's not like we don't need doctors !!!

Mums, that is extraordinary and shocking. I hope the school apologised. Aptitude tests ought to ensure that kids with offers are more than capable of 3 As.

Three quarters of A-Level predicted grades are missed by students.

www.tes.com/news/five-out-six-level-grade-predictions-teachers-are-wrong-study-shows

"It feels More like... we're selecting the students most likely to be reliably competent & last the whole 5-6 years on our course."

Don't know whether you're a medic or not but if you are, then I'm highly concerned your school's selection machine has been barking up the wrong trees all this while if "reliable competence" (whatever that means) that can last 5-6 years is all you're looking for in your medical students. May as well select all marathon runners for guaranteed stamina!

And if you're not a medic, then I suggest you're in the wrong job as I can't see how a supposedly highly efficient machine can function efficiently and seamlessly with a major wrong part fitted on it. Imagine the RFU at Twickenham having as its head coach someone who'd never touched a rugby ball in his life trying to select players for the England team!

"I don't even know what that word 'best' means to the poster who wrote it (or to anyone else). . .World class? More like battle for survival under immense strain, sadly."

It was I who wrote the words, 'best' and 'world class'. And I must admit it doesn't surprise me a jot given the above that you don't understand these two simple terms.

According to the World Directory of Medical Schools, there are over 2800 operational medical schools from Afghanistan to 'Zululand'. And if the United Kingdom have 2 in the first 3; or 5 in the first 15; or 7 in the first 25 out of these 2800 schools, then in anybody's language it is absolutely World Class and Best!

What that's really, really sad is for someone pertaining to be involved in the UK medical schools is to devalue the profession.

My dd is doing four A levels and is coping well. It depends on the student

Pete that is extremely arrogant of you. By definition only those with great A level predictions will be invited to selection - there's no need to test to see if they are the 'brightest'. It's perfectly sensible to select those that have the best chance of graduating - no point whatsoever taking them on, spending £££ teaching them, only for them to drop-out after two years. You are a pompous ass.

Don't post anything just for the sake of posting titchy for it may show up your ignorance and stupidity. All you're saying are things that are blatantly obvious. What's your point? Have you anything solid to contribute other than talking through your arse? When was the last time you spoke to a medic and for how long - and I don't mean talking to your GP about the pain in your arse.

This thread seems to have gone a little off topic.

I think Op basically :
Your DD doesnt need 4 A levels - only need 3 - If your DD wants to study History A level and can handle the workload then that wont harm her application with Maths/Chem/Bio already. Physics AS may help either with BMAT or later down the line .

If your looking for lots of info on families that have just gone through the process or have DC's currently in Med school then go to higher education board where you will see lots of threads with very useful information.

TSR - Is very helpful - I was directed to the mega-thread at the top of the medicine section.

This site is also helpful : www.themedicportal.com/application-guide/choosing-a-medical-school/what-a-levels-do-you-need-to-be-a-doctor/

There are also summer courses for future medic's

debatechamber.com/summerschools/law-and-medicine/

If your anywhere near Warwick Uni they run a great Lab day during the summer which is FREE and DD said was very helpful.

peteneras, the league table you linked to is about research reputation of those schools (h-index, etc). A league table about student satisfaction or feeling prepared to practice medicine, later longetivity in profession or later average salary, & other things might look a lot different.

The NHS pays for 2 years tuition, so there is a public interest in making sure the students have stamina. The NHS absorbs all the junior doctors that UK med schools can produce & puts them onto the junior doctor treadmill (also grueling).

I don't know how to break this news gently. Plenty people involved in HCP admissions aren't clinicians nor will care about the student's later research output. I hear-tell of a pediatric nursing course that has children on the interview panels, even.

On the question of three or four, mumsneedwine's example is useful.

DD missed an A in biology by a single UMS. She does not know what went wrong. Following AS she had been on track for an A*.

But things do go wrong. The fact she had the grades in chemistry and physics (the offer mentioned 2 lab subjects) plus a fourth meant she did not lose her place. If a student is able to carry four without struggling there is advantage in having a spare. Perhaps why we are not aware of anyone losing a place because of mot making grades.

You said you didn't know what 'best' meant in your last but one post. I therefore provided a link to the world's "best" medical schools as the world understands it. Just Google 'The world's best medical schools' and you'll get the same list. Some may agree with the ranking and some may not - I certainly do not agree with everything there, particularly the rank positions, but accept generally all those !listed in the first couple or so pages i.e. the first 50 schools are "world class and best".

And I certainly am not going to split hairs into their most minute of details down to their single DNA as to what researches each school has done, how much their graduates earn, how many rowing Olympic medals each school won, etc. If the world-respected QS top universities says so which is best and which not so good, then that's good enough for me.