For DD who wants to study medicine- physics or History as 4?

[princ3ssconsuelabananahammock]

My dd is set on studying medicine and is currently considering A level options as is in year 11. She knows for sure she wants to do maths, biology and chemistry but is struggling with the last gap. She first thought of taking physics AS but is now exploring the idea of history. She loves history and is soso good at it but the problem is that it’s no longer offered as an AS anymore so can only choose the full A level. She’s scared that 4 a levels is too heavy a workload and she won’t be able to perform as well but is also conflicted as she really loves history (and much prefers it to physics) What do you think she should do?

Almost 50% of Medical students intercate in some schools and do a dissertation- extended writing skills will be invaluable. Generally shown it’s chemistry that is a good predictor of performance in medicine and biology useful for the subject. But a humanity is fine and 3 sciences are not ‘optimum’ in any other sense than a school may require that for entry.

3 sciences and EPQ in History of Medicine? Or biology, chemistry and history would be a perfectly acceptable combination for most medical schools. She could also intercalate in History of Medicine although that’s a bit further down the line.

Although not essential for entry by any means, some have said that maths and/or biology have ben useful once on the course, hence my 'optimum' comment - but yes I accept an essay writing subject could be useful too. But I also agree a subject that is of interest can be kept up outside of examined subjects.

Oratory I agree. Comments like this Doing history won’t help. are plain daft.

All education helps. Wider knowledge is a good thing. Even doctors have to be able to write.

In terms of three or four, a lot depends on the student and the school. No medical school will ask for four, but you need to be able to juggle quite a heavy workload when you get to University sso the experience can help. Quite a lot of pupils, often those from Grammars and private schools will have done four.

DD, who has just started her second year, took five. She has used them all. She was lucky in that she was a natural mathematician and scientist so it was not too taxing and did not prevent her doing plenty of other things. However some of her peers claim to have had to work very hard into order to achieve the right grades in three, so there is not an obvious answer.

In terms of subjects DD says chemistry and maths have proved the most useful. Not having maths means there is a bit of ground to make up. Relatively few have physics, but having it and the ability to pick up concepts quickly, has come in handy. DD is thinking of intercalating in medical engineering, so it may yet prove its worth.

DD did not take a humanity. She has had to do a couple of longer pieces of written work where the structure, evidence and argument skills learned in history would have helped. But again you can only do what you have time for.

BMAT tests on physics as well as other science, which is worth considering if she is interested in BMAT schools.

Bubbles claims that volunteering is more important. Though I will defer to her greater experience, I am not so sure. DD did quite a lot, but she enjoyed it, and it has helped with a course that is quite hands on from the start. Others seem to be fine with very little.

You make a good point by distinguishing between what is essential to help get you in and what may be useful experience that helps when your undertaking the course. So I guess the advise would be first do what you need to to secure three top grades including chemistry and another science or maths plus a level of volunteering. Then add whatever additional subjects or volunteering/extra curricular you enjoy or find interesting and, whilst may not help in admission, may provide experiences that help in the future - but, only as long as the latter don’t impact in the likelihood of securing those first three top grades.

I mark the 2nd & 3rd year essays sometimes. It helps get good grades if they can string words together well. Concisely, though. DD learnt in GCSEs to write sentences with 3+ clauses in them. She writes many sentences like that back to back. DD insists this is good writing & how she got 9 in English GCSE. WTAF. Just write what you mean succinctly, and learn to vary sentence length for readability. Slightly blunt sentences are better than waffle. Going over word limit incurs grade penalties, too.

Work experience: you don't need that much because we can only talk about so much in interview. Lots of kids can't do much so it would be very discriminatory to make WE a big part of admissions (else rich kids would do better for having better connections to get 'better' placements). I read some Med school admissions criteria require volunteering sessions -- I'm guessing 12 sessions, typically? Not huge, anyway.

Will she be looking at top uni's for medicine? Remember that she'll need to devote a lot of time to studying the BMAT if so. Many students basically ignore their A-levels this term (doing the bare minimum) to focus on uni applications and should still be capable of getting A*s.

I think she should remember that learning isn't limited to the classroom. She has a lifetime to teach herself whatever she enjoys.

DD (also looking to go into medicine) doing all science A Levels at the moment (lower sixth) and workload is fairly heavy even with 2 "free" study periods each day (Dd often doing 2 hours plus work at home each night). Quite a few medical schools actually require Chemistry and Biology at A level now NOT just Chemistry.
Almost all the girls at DD's school have now dropped down to 3 A levels unless they are taking FM. I think you have to judge whether your DD would benefit from an AS level or Not - I dont think it will make any difference to a medical application.
Personally I would stick to the 3 A levels (although maybe worth toying with 4 for the first few weeks/month to ensure she has 3 A levels she enjoys) to leave capacity for EPQ and volunteering/work experience. Having read a few forum posts Physics is useful when it comes to sitting BMAT but the science element of BMAT is supposed to be just GCSE standard.

Fact of the matter is, most medical schools, if not all medical schools need only 3 A-Levels.

Fact of the matter No. 2, is, most if not all, high-calibre candidates vying for Medicine places have at least 4 or more A-Levels.

Fact of the matter No. 3, is, RE is a more useful and appropriate essay-writing subject than History for Medicine.

OP, think of it this way, your DC is not competing against universities/medical schools whose "minimum requirements" for entry are all fairly standard enough. S/he is competing against other candidates who are also vying for the same places your child has in mind and so please take on board the above facts.

Sorry, I think petenaras is giving out information that should be carefully checked. Having 4 A-levels matters not a jot if the school being applied to is only requiring it’s offer holders to meet the grades in 3 subjects to get their place. And if the offer is made on the basis of gcse grades/predicted grades in 3 stipulated A-levels/performance in ukcat or bmat and performance at interview/mmi. Some schools additionally use personal statements. The 4th A-level won’t ‘swing it’ if it’s not part of what a school is looking for. It just won’t. And drilling into the preferred subject of a humanity is again pointless - humanities bring a different way of looking at, critical thinking and writing which actually could be useful - particularly for those who want to research or intercalate.

Please check the school requirements carefully and stop making application to medicine an elite pursuit and setting really high requirements that when you look at what schools are actually requiring won’t be necessary. As someone said up thread, better to get the required grades in the required number of a-levels (that are now harder) than risk it with an unnecessary 4th.

The increased places will also be in the mix in 19/20 so again check new requirements carefully with each school.

most if not all, high-calibre candidates vying for Medicine places have at least 4 or more A-Levels.

Most will also have DofE and grade 8 piano. That doesn't mean if you only got grade 5 you're screwed.

Of those that GET med offers, a large proportion just have the usual 3 A levels, (and have been state educated).

Three A levels is perfectly fine. Taking 4 doesn't give you a better chance of an offer.

I don't think you understand what my underlying message is, Gwynfluff.

And also a larger proportion of Oxford and Cambridge successes have been state educated, titchy.

And also a larger proportion of Oxford and Cambridge successes have been state educated, titchy.

Yes I know. I said most med offers are made to those from state schools. Same goes for Oxbridge and the other meds.

But you didn't say now many A-Levels these state educated med offerees have.

"Same goes for Oxbridge and the other meds."

Why stop at "the other meds"? I would say, as in all other degrees in all universities in the world!

There's a lot of misinformation here.

Not least that physics is 'irrelevant'. If you want to consider radiology, anaesthesia, bioengineering, prosthetics or maxillofacial, any new tech applications and biomechanics (to name but a few) then physics is either required or will give you a serious leg up against other candidates.

You hit the nail right on the head there, Bobbin! It's amazing some of the things that's been said here on this thread.

But you didn't say now many A-Levels these state educated med offerees have.

Errrr yes I did. '...large proportion just have the usual 3 A levels.'

Yes of course the same applies to all degrees. But the thread is about med specifically, and the med courses, along with Ox and Cam, being very competitive, have a lot of people like you who suggest four is the route to an offer because of the competition.

Misinformation like that gets my goat because it implies that the 3 A level state kid won't get a look-in, when the opposite is true.

"...because it implies that the 3 A level state kid won't get a look-in, when the opposite is true."

Show me where did I make this implication will you? And better still, show me the evidence that "the opposite is true".

No medical school looks at 4. They are now very clear about this at open days. You can do 20 and they will still only look at 3. So do 3 and ace them. There is a lot else to do in year 12/13 if applying to medicine, such as volunteering, work experience, UKCAT/BMAT, interviews and these take time. So many candidates fall at the last hurdle by not getting the grades. Said from a mum of first year medic & ex state school. Oh and be aware that some medical schools never look at the PS (Sheffield being one). They got fed up of them being written by other people ! So grades are everything !

Show me where did I make this implication will you?

Come on peter. You said:
Fact of the matter No. 2, is, most if not all, high-calibre candidates vying for Medicine places have at least 4 or more A-Levels.

"Fact of the matter is, most medical schools, if not all medical schools need only 3 A-Levels."

Said the parent of an F2 junior doctor and was the first sentence so said at this thread.

Things have changed a lot in 7 years though. Including the A levels !! Now v v few have 4 A levels as no point. It's hard enough doing 3 with the new syllabuses. Admissions tutors are really helpful at debunking myths and make sure you get the up to date info as changes every year (Bristol was PS heavy last year but now entirely down to UKCAT).

It's more than 7 years - eight, to be precise. (Well, it would be 7 years for my nephew who became the 10th medic in the immediate family circle when he graduated a few months ago). But of course, things do change over time, e.g. medical schools' selection criteria, aptitude tests preference, interview methods, and even course structure and program, etc. But essentially, the core objectives remain the same, i.e. to select the best medical students to provide a world-class health care system for now and the future.

The new A-level exams are still very much in their infancy to draw any conclusions whether they are "harder" or not. Students outside the UK are not affected by this so-called "new and harder" A-Level exams.

Looks like this study explains why doors are opening much wider to state school students in medicine : www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/09/05/state-schools-students-likely-become-high-flying-doctors-used/

Peternas I do agree about the A levels. I just wanted to say that medical schools have become quite pragmatic and only look at 3. They categorically state they won't look at doing anymore favourably. And they don't care what schools people went too, I doubt most even look. It's done on merit alone as it should be. 15 went from my daughters (v large) 6th form college to do medicine. Because they were worth it 😁