Controversial Behaviour Policy changes

[Chattonnoire]

I am looking to get some insight into the changes taking places at a number of Free Schools, especially London, that have been making dramatic changes to Behaviour Policy since Michaela Community School made headlines as being the strictest school in Britain:

time.com/5232857/michaela-britains-strictest-school/

metro.co.uk/2017/09/11/britains-strictest-school-bans-pupils-from-looking-out-the-window-and-smirking-6917747/

www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/13422769.The_secrets_of_Magna_Academy_s_transformation__Students_who_walk_silently_between_lessons/

I noticed, that the comments at the end of these articles were mostly negative from parents and students in these schools, and don't appear to be in line with the "hard sell" the schools are making it out to be.

The impression is that teachers are asserting control over the difficult and disruptive students at the expense of the rest; the average student is muted in these "silent transitions" to and from classes and expressed feeling unhappy and the environment oppressive and weird.

None of the students have the authority to question the new policy, too afraid of being given 90 minutes detentions on the same day regardless of any commitments they may have (Medical or Sporting...at the expense of either their health missing long awaited NHS appointments or financial loss for missed activities to lower income families, as many students on free school meals) for often arbitrary and minor and low level disruptions such as is listed on many of these schools behaviour policies.

So they are being taught not to learn any assertiveness, question authority at any point, to conform, never to speak out, contest or oppose injustice, and may in fact have long lasting emotional and psychological negative impact on these teen developing minds in the real world, where they may not be able to defend themselves from unfair treatment from employers, or even personal relationships.

I am concerned about how fitting and convenient it is for the staff of schools in managing the delinquents, but how damaging this can potential be for bright and able children to be treated with less freedom than correctional facilities. Mental health and self harm and teen suicides statistics are already depressingly high, and with high pressured expectations and penalised for low level infractions can sabotage a once engaged teen's self esteem. A friend's 14 year old son recently committed suicide. So this really touches a raw nerve.

I've seen how a hostile school environment can crush a student with so much potential too many times.

I can't help but thinK of Pink Floyd's "Another Brick in the Wall" with faceless children put through the grinder...sorry for the grim comparison....but I can't shake it.

Is this radical new Behaviour Control in developing adolescent minds a good thing, or setting them up to fail in the real world in order that the schools get "Outstanding" Ofsted reports as inspectors come and see automatons walking silently through schools for fear of punishment and exclusion?

Are any of you in these super strict schools and finding it great or awful?

*If you are a teacher or part of school staff, please indicate in your response, so an understanding of your perspective is made clear.

Thank you

don't think that children shouldn't behave until their teacher respects them

Why do you keep banging on about teachers respecting the kids when generally kids piss about because they don’t respect the teachers? I had a kid kick off in my very first lesson with them this year. The pupil is known to be difficult. Did they kick off because I didn’t respect them? I doubt it, they had barely met me. I’m not the problem there.

And if a teacher is handing out detentions then no, the assumption should not automatically be that the teacher is to blame. Don’t assume that teachers who don’t hand out detentions have well-behaved classes, I’ve seen some circuses where plenty were deserved and none given. Don’t assume that the teacher handing out detentions is bad at discipline. Other factors also influence class behaviour such as the mix of the pupils which may be different for different subjects, the timing of the lesson (last lesson on Friday?), the teacher may be a young NQT who kids always test, the subject, even the layout of the classroom.

If a kid is racking up detentions from the same teacher then FGS tell them to behave.

If it's the first lesson it's up to you to set the tone - that's what building a relationship between teacher and pupil is about, no?! It seems to me that you are wilfully misunderstanding the really quite uncontroversial point I'm trying to make, which is that discipline needs to be underpinned by good teacher-student relationships in order to be effective. If a rule is applied unfairly or cruelly then even the meekest most well-behaved kid will be tempted to kick off. The kind of dictatorial nonsense utterly lacking in any humanity or flexibility going on in some schools is not the way to good discipline, it's a way to alienate well-behaved kids like the op without doing anything to engage the hard nuts. If a kid has been bunking off school for months, do you think putting them in internal isolation for having their tie done up wrong is going to re-engage them with education?

And I thought we were having a conversation about respect in the context of education and what it means. I'm not 'banging on' about anything. How bloody rude.

And, frog you seem to be wilfully ignoring the fact that a pupil’s behaviour is not always in the control of a teacher, regardless of what the teacher says, does, sets the tone, whatever.

A few on this thread seem to think it’s soley the responsibility of a teacher.

If a kid has been bunking off school for months, do you think putting them in internal isolation for having their tie done up wrong is going to re-engage them with education?

Point to where on this thread anyone has said this is reasonable .

I don’t teach in a super-strict school. I’m not in favour of the kids not being allowed out of their seats at lunch or being sanctioned for glancing out of the window.

But I’m also not accepting the idea that issuing detentions = crap disciplinarian, or that reminiscing about ye olde teacher who could control a class with a raised eyebrow is even remotely helpful.

According to my DS, there are very few teachers he would point the finger and blame st for students poor behaviour. In fact he is very pro-dentention and isolation towards the students serving sanctions, as he once told me it made all the other students and teachers safer. He has great empathy for the teaching staff and dorsn’t Just come home venting about all the stupid rules he hates, he just points out the more recent chances in behaviour policy he found questionable. DS also comes home and recounts all the awful things student do at school that teachers shouldn’t have to tolerate as well. He empathises a great deal for them and no so much for the truly disruptive students.

I suppose it’s a situation that appears to be untenable for both teacher and well behaved students atm

*deserving sanctions.

*recent changes

I really can spell! Need to slow down typing and re-read spellcheck isn’t correcting my words

If a kid is racking up detentions from the same teacher then FGS tell them to behave.

I agree with this, as long as the teacher is reasonable. There are cases where the teacher is not - my DD1 had one like that. She was constantly being pulled up for things she had not done/said, whilst other pupils could practically riot and get away with it. DD1 has always been quiet and well behaved. I told her to have a word with her form tutor, who went to the Head of Department. Head of Department quietly observed a lesson without warning - and then quietly had a word with said teacher. Who promptly stopped picking on DD1. Not all teachers always get it right.

The majority do, though.

I don't think that childrenshouldn'tbehave until their teacher respects them - I'm saying that is the reality of the situation, whether you like it or not.
That's not the reality in many schools.
Schools that have a decent behaviour policy that's clear and consistent don't have staff on the back foot from day one because students are wrongly of the view that the teacher should prove themselves and get them on side.

Students try to suss staff out and will push it a bit but in schools with a positive climate for learning polite requests and a few lunch detentions are all that's required to prove you don't deal with nonsense. Students (certainly at my school) respect the staff who have discipline because they know they are the members of staff who will help them learn instead of doing pointless football or Pokemon activities to try and negotiate with the 3 children who like to disrupt every lesson.

One time I was assaulted by a student. Home tried to argue it was my fault because I hadn't engaged him or got him on side. To be honest, I was more bothered about the routine verbal abuse to staff and students and the routine threats to staff and students so funnily enough I was working my arse off trying to keep other children safe. But sure, mum argued that I was to blame. Apparently he doesn't like it when people tell him what to do! So I was blamed for being assaulted by a 14 year old boy because his mother felt I should have proven myself to him.
Fuck no. Thankfully SLT agreed with me.

Maisy that's appalling!

Utterly unacceptable

But sometimes kids kick off for no reason. It’s not always the teachers fault.

I’ve been teaching 20 years or more and there is always some kid who will misbehave more for me ( or another teacher) . There’s no reason to it, it’s just sometimes a clash of personality.

Examples like this led to policies we now have, and DS losing his favourite teachers who he claimed were strict but fair, whom he often compares to be similar to my parenting style. He prefers a teacher with co distinct and hands out warnings/punishments fairly

that’s supposed to say consistent

pointythings
I know. Absolutely awful.
The thing that made me really cross was how many children had their education repeatedly disrupted because children like him have been told they are beyond rules and teachers should be begging and travelling to engage them and that they can kick off if they don't like something.

It doesn't even have to be assault. I've seen lessons disrupted because a teacher has made a reasonable and polite request regarding uniform or taking coats off in the classroom. They were met with shouting and verbal abuse and 'eh norrr. I don't think so. What IS your problem. Fucksake.' Then mum turns up backing their child saying 'it's the teacher's fault. If they hadn't told them to tuck their shirt in, remove their cap, take headphones out etc then none of this would have happened. I don't see how you can put my child in isolation JUST FOR WEARING A HOODY.' and then more nonsense about how their DC doesn't like the teacher, teacher can't teach, maybe if the teacher didn't expect their child to follow simple instructions then their child would behave (and other nonsense to the effect of 'my child only has to behave if they feel like it and I will back them 100%').

The idea that basic respect, behaviour for learning an manners are based on whether a teacher has successfully played entertainer to earn brownie points from a group of kids is a slippery slope and one that ruins education for the vast majority of children who want to learn.

I’ve found sometimes, emoji it’s because I’m female.

There are definitely some kids who don’t respect women.

The problem with instituting "clear and consistent" policies in difficult schools is that when "good" kids get sanctioned their parents often kick off too. "But my James is such a nice lad, he's never been in trouble before, he didn't mean it, he's sorry, surely you should be focusing on X, Y and Z who are far worse behaved than James." Those parents often don't see why 'low-level' disruption is actually that bad.

Behaving properly in a classroom isn't just about respecting your teacher, so the idea that teachers have to "earn" respect (i.e. basic manners) can fuck right off.

I have the "strict but fair" reputation in my school. And I now rarely have to issue sanctions. But we've had an NQT start and the kids are playing up for her. So she issues more sanctions than me. If she keeps up with consistently applying the policy, in 6months or so she will also have a "strict but fair" reputation. Fortunately, our slt (and most parents) know that the kids are pushing boundaries rather than telling her she is doing something wrong.

The key word there is fair. If the NQT earns a reputation as 'strict but fair' in six months, won't that mean that she has, erm, earned the respect of her students? If on the other hand she gets a reputation as a either a pushover or a capricious tyrant, kids will keep trying to get one over on her. It's such a straw man to say that anyone was suggesting that teachers need to 'play to the gallery' to get kids to like them, or that they don't have to behave if they don't like their teacher. Nobody has suggested this at any point on the thread, least of all me.

No, she won't have earned their respect, she will have gained their compliance. I don't swear at my boss because it isn't in my best interests to do so. That doesn't mean I respect him. My point, though, was that issuing more sanctions than another teacher doesn't mean that she is worse at behaviour management. In her case, it's simply that she's new.

I was in response a pp who suggested that if a child is only getting detentions from one teacher that means the teacher is in the wrong. I'm pointing out that there is often other reasons.

IME, respect comes after compliance. Once they are behaving correctly, learning well and taking advantage of the 'extras' most teachers offer - that's were respect tends to come in.

I think it's about issuing the right sanctions for the right infringements. Quality over quantity if that makes sense.

IME, respect comes after compliance. Once they are behaving correctly, learning well and taking advantage of the 'extras' most teachers offer - that's were respect tends to come in.
Yes. There's the basic respect and staff not having to negotiate their way to having students listening and then there's the 2nd level of respect which comes once you know the students and build those relationships.

E.g. first day of term I don't have to prove myself or earn the respect of pupils for them to enter the classroom sensibly, not talk whilst I'm talking, raise their hand to ask a question, not talk over their peers who are giving answers, follow basic instructions etc. Thats basic respect and is a non negotiable.

Over time however the relationship changes as they get to know me and I get to know them. That sort of respect is different ad it's the additional respect which emerges out of longer term positive relationships.

frog
People have suggested that teachers issuing sanctions is a sign of poor classroom management and that's ruling with fear. People have suggested that students will only behave if the teacher earns their respect. If staff can only expect decent behaviour after they've tried to earn the respect of teenagers then that means that there's a green light to misbehave until the teacher proves they are worth listening to.

If they think she's fair, then that's respect, isn't it? You can't think your boss is a fair man but have no respect for him! If you only obey him because you'll otherwise lose your job, that's presumably because he's an arse or an incompetent. What a counsel of despair for teachers if their best hope is that kids obey them only because they have to. Isn't the point of teaching to inspire the kids to learn?

So whenever a teacher takes over a class they don’t know, they need to spend 6 months issuing sanctions until the class decides she’s fair. And if she hasn’t been fair at any point, then free-for-all?

frog
It's pretty hard to get round to the learning if you're spending a reasonable proportion of time courting the opinions of teenagers and negotiating basic behaviour.

noble
Obviously. Everyone knows that expecting a reasonable standard of manners and behaviour is obviously exceptionally draconian and a wank fantasy of those who'd bring back the cane.

Back in reality, you, me and most other people know that a basic level of behaving so learning can happen is an entirely reasonable expectation.