As the Tiffin deadline looms, is there a girls SW London grammars / indies thread yet?

[FlumePlume]

I just realised that I need to get the Tiffin Girls form in ASAP, and wondered if anyone else is in the same position? I could do with company in this process!

We’re not yet decided but probably applying to Tiffin, WHS, SPGS, Sutton High and maybe one of PHS / Emanuel / KGS.

Thanks 1ndig0 for the insight into how prep schools work. I had no idea prep schools and the heads have so much influence into where children apply and recommend children to secondary schools depending on CAT scores. And I didn’t know that you can be guided by the CAT scores as to which secondary school to apply. Do the CAT scores get written on the references? What age do children start doing CATs? Such a different world to those of us blindly seeing the way ourselves! So interesting! I’d never heard of CATs before this thread.

We also have a younger child.. as DD has always been told she's right at the top of her year in all subjects and she hasn't got in everywhere we really need to think hard about what to do next time. Perhaps if we had our time over we would have put them in prep school - or practiced papers every day - but they've been happy at their primary and honestly it didn't occur to me- I always thought it would be wasted money and possibly even counter-productive. I had no idea what a tough process this would be (basically no idea at all of the numbers(.

I have a friend with an older child who having gone through the stress of 11+ coming from a state school, promptly moved her younger one to a prep school so it was less stressful second time round. I can see why she did this now although won’t be doing it for my younger one.

Yes, DH mentioned that as an idea.. DS would have an absolute fit.

The way is was explained to me is that CAT tests assess underlying ability. For instance, a child may be consistently scoring 141 in areas of CAT maths, but this by no means guarantees they will be achieving 100% in all school maths tests because there may be other factors such as motor-planning issues, confidence, concentration or maturity that means they’re not performing at this level. It helps the school to find strategies to enable each child to reach their potential, especially where there may be SPLD such as dyslexia or dyspraxia. Or if they think pupils will need extra time in exams they put them in touch with Ed Psychs who can make such recommendations. They also use other internal assessments to track reading age, spelling age and numeracy against national standardised scores (I think all schools do this) and are clear to parents that wherever a child fall off their individual trajectory year to year or term to term, they don’t ask “Why is the child getting it wrong?” but “What are we getting wrong.”

Having said this, they also know the reality is that even the brightest child can have an off day and some children perform more consistently under exam conditions than others. This is why they tell you to do 5 schools, one if which must be a “failsafe.” If you don’t have a failsafe, the head rings you and tells you to sort it out because very few people have made state school applications as well, so nothing to fall back on.

In about March of Year 5, you have to hand in the form that asks for your 5 school choices. This is following at least one recorded meeting with the head to discuss realistic choices for your child. If the head is not happy with your choices they tell you and there have been cases where they refuse to sign off the form and / or to write references.

A lot about GCSE results depends how you slice and dice them though. SPGS and G&L may have very similar results if you look at A-A* for example. But if you look at Grade 9s only, the differences emerge again (57% vs 83% or similar). I agree the differences may be narrowing, but they are still there when you split hairs!

Thanks so much 1ndig0, first time heard of CAT too, very informative and insightful!

Couple of my daughter class mates moved to prep schools at year 3 too, even their elder children went to the top Indie after 7 years at my daughter school. We chose her school because its only a short walk from home. And yes, she hasnt been stressed at her school however she still has fun, loves her friends, her teachers and it doesnt cost any so I would do it again. It would have been much more stressful for us paying for prep school, additional care cost in pick and drop daily plus longer holiday child care cost and additional travelling time for her on daily basis at such a young age. Majority of parents at my daughter school could send their children to private(85% of the leavers ended at private), they didnt need to.
Earlier this thread we discussed about how many schools parents applied and I said we applied more than we might need to(well especially CLSG which we were least impressed after the interview reception last Friday). For 11+, she started with Maths and English in Oct year 5 with a group Tutor, had a 10+ place offer in Jan, scored 2nd in Wilson mock in the summer, had band A Henrietta round two even has never done any CEM, she still didnt feel certain. Some exams she said were very tough, questions she had to leave blank. She might have never done any exam before KGS 10+ last year academically however she has done loads for music which I think definitely helps.

Out of interest for those currently receiving indie results and also awaiting grammar school results, where do you stand on preference? Whilst it seems like a long shot to get Tiffin, it is a possibility as DD sat the stage 2 exams. But I know very little about what life is like at Tiffin compared to an indie. My DD and her friends who also sat the exams are not too keen. Mainly because there experience of the school totals the open day (a scrum with hundreds of other people when you really couldn’t get a feel for the school) and the 2 exam days which in all honesty are a borderline disgrace in their treatment of 10/11 year old girls. It’s hard for anyone to get a warm fuzzy feeling about these schools and I will be hard pushed to persuade DD it’s a great option (should she be “lucky” enough to get in). Thoughts?

For working parents like us who dont have grandparents and/or othee support neither qualified for any school bursary then cost is a matter. Grammar is completely free, only 3 miles from us so ofcourse its one of my favourite choice. However since beginning of this journey we have promised her that eventually if there are choices she could choose and we will support, she seems to have forget about it all these days.

Earlier post correction: stressed=stretched.

Jimjam - total agreement that the experience of the open day and the exam days have completely put off my dd from wanting to go to Tiffin. It is indeed a long shot for us and would save us a lot of money but convincing our dd will be very difficult if we were lucky (?) enough to get a place. I’ve also no idea of the reality of life at TGS.

Of course cost is a huge consideration, and I’m just wondering how people will navigate the choice should it arise. Having shown our DD the shiny private schools and agreed we will involve her in the decision, knowing her preference is skewed by the better treatment she has experienced from the private schools - how on earth I would steer her back to the state option? I’m sure many of us face this scenario.

@Jimjam68 I honestly don't know...my DD initially said she really liked TGS but I think she was just saying that because she knew it was really hard to get in. To motivate her to continue studying for the private school exams I pointed out that if she went to TGS she'd have to wake up half an hour earlier so now she's convinced she wants to go to WHS. I worry about her being too keen on any of them because who knows what will happen. Just trying to tell her to keep an open mind. I don't know anyone who has real life experience of TGS and have concerns about how pressured it is but realise that this is based on hearsay. It would be so useful to be able to chat with people who have direct experience of the schools but have no idea how to do this.

I have dc at WHS and am happy to answer questions by PM

@Backman thank you! I may take you up on that if DD gets an offer or decent position on the WL.

Obviously second hand but my friend has a daughter at TIffin Girls and one at primary with my DD. The older one is very happy there despite a more complicated journey.. she is a whizz at maths and science and is not finding the workload too much at all.

Mine didn't get through round 1 but didn't fancy it much after the exam anyway, partly the crowds and partly that she just found the maths so hard. Also she had seen a couple of private schools by then and as others have said they make the open days so much more attractive than TGS as did our local state school which has a fab atmosphere. She tried very hard to get out of doing the exam! I guess there's an upside in there for us as we don't have to make the decision!

I have a question - do Tiffin not interview applicants then? Is selection purely in exam performance alone?

My DS went to one of the ‘top’ Prep schools in SW London and as far as I am concerned, the influence the Prep Heads have with the Independent secondaries is massively exaggerated. The schools want the top academic students so they don’t take pupils based on a phone call from the Prep Head. I suspect people want to believe they are getting this extra help because of the money they have paid.

I have a question - do Tiffin not interview applicants then? Is selection purely in exam performance alone?

Grammar schools are not allowed to select by interview.

Sorry if I’m rambling on about schools, but it does strike me as unfair and ridiculous that DC with CAT scores that are within the national average will struggle to find a school in SW London. Really there is only Notre Dame (miles out), Radnor (still competitive), St Catherine’s (new head in an academic drive), More House (Knightsbridge, will not suit everyone), or the Hall, Wimbledon which seems boy-heavy and has a really long day.

Kew House was supposed to cater for this “gap” and look at the more “rounded” child, not just academics. I went to have a look a few years ago and the head was talking about the importance of the group interview in the selection process - “Don’t just bring something obvious like a football trophy. We’ll know you play football from the reference.” Then he said, “This year, for instance, we’ve had an iguana running about (!) and a marvellous lemon drizzle cake that went down very well with all.” As if people haven’t got enough on with the 11 plus malarkey, without the extra hoops to jump through of thinking up weird and wonderful items to make your child stand out or buying exotic pets fgs!

I also know another child who went to one of those group interviews st smithed school with a gymnastics certificate to talk about, only to see the girl next to her produce a whole BBC folder, signed by celebrities and allsorts, from when she was a finalist in Child Genius

@jeanne16 I agree. In the past - and quite a long time past - I think some prep heads were hugely influential. But no longer! Their advice on which schools would suit however is very helpful.

Yes, loads of children were still in uniform with badges in LU interview on SATURDAY, we found it amusing, after all, they are only 10 or just 11.

When do we think the wait lists will start moving?
Does anyone have experience of how it does works in practise with the Tiffin results so close to the reply dates for the independents?

jeanne - no I don’t think prep heads can “get DC in” as such. Nor would they want to try because the emphasis throughout is always on finding the “right” school for the child.

I do think some preps have a personal relationship or understanding with certain schools though. I remember when one of my DS sat Hampton years ago. The head told me just before Xmas, “We’re not sure about LU, but we think he will get into Hampton.” I’m never sure if this was a marketing technique, but DS then received a handwritten Xmas card from the head. Could he have handwritten 900 cards to all applicants - I don’t know? Anyway, seven boys “sent” from the prep all got interviews there (and all received offers). The head did intervene for the one boy who didn’t get an interview and managed to swing him one, though the parents didn’t take it up and he went to KGS. That’s just one school though. Hampton has its own feeder school anyway and is maybe more inclined to depend on others in this sense? The preps don’t have this influence at all schools, by any means, but they will at least get on the phone in borderline cases.