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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

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Original poster

If you live in a non grammar school area...

79 replies

Gobbledigook · 30/05/2007 10:28

...what are your secondary schools like?

Is there still competition to get into certain ones, like at primary level, or do you just go to the nearest/local one and that's it?

Am off out now so will check back later. I'm just interested.

OP posts:

harpsichordcarrier · 30/05/2007 11:26

no, but affluent parents have a great advantage in getting their children into grammar schools.
as do affluent primary schools
grammar schools in no way advantage clever, disadvantaged children. or average ones with potential come to that

KerryMum · 30/05/2007 11:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

harpsichordcarrier · 30/05/2007 11:28

to put it another way - the emphasis on parental choice has massively disadvantaged children whose parents do not have the ability or the interest in education.
who is looking out for those children? it's negligent and wasteful and frankly bad for the economy

UnquietDad · 30/05/2007 11:29

I think that situation has developed because of the scarcity of grammar schools.

I went to one in the 80s, when there were a good few more (but nothing like as many as there were before that) and we had pupils from all round the borough, "good" and "bad" areas alike.

These days, grammars are a rarity and so of course the system will be manipulated by those with the means and the information to do so.

It seems bizarre that there is a clear imbalance between supply and demand with grammar schools, and yet politicians on all sides want to further reduce the supply when they should be increasing it to meet the demand.

JoolsToo · 30/05/2007 11:29

I agree that some people move to areas for grammar schools (just how many I don't know) but they also move to areas of 'good' comps.

As I said - what's the difference?

Some parents take out expensive loans to get their kids privately educated. Some bus them out the borough (Tony!). Some go against their basic beliefs (Harriet, Dianne).

JoolsToo · 30/05/2007 11:32

exactly UQD!

harpsi I would have to disagree with 'grammar schools in no way advantage clever, disadvantaged children', I could give you several stories of 'disadvantaged' kids who were at my primary school doing exceedingly well under the system, mind you my experience at school is umpty tumpty years ago!

drosophila · 30/05/2007 11:33

Unquiet I htink is based on the fundamental belief that to determin a person's life at the age of a 11 is a little unfair and silly frankly.

Kids develop at different rates and a good comp would deal with that.

JoolsToo · 30/05/2007 11:33

a 'good' comp may what about the rest?

UnquietDad · 30/05/2007 11:37

I don't want to go back to the 11+, as I've said on these grammar school arguments before. Any selection wouod be done by a more sophisticated method now - it would have to be.

And I don't buy the "what you do at 11 determines your entire life" argument, not any more. There are choices at all ages. We live in a culture of lifelong learning. if you leave school at 15 with no qualifications and decide 4 years later that you want to get your life back on track and go to university, there is nothing to stop you. My BIL did just that, very successfully.

beckybrastraps · 30/05/2007 11:38

What method?

harpsichordcarrier · 30/05/2007 11:41

they should all be good.
and there may have been individuals who benefitted but for the vast majority, according to all the research evidence, the tripartite system just perpetuated the existing social disadvantages. that was why it was abolished in the first place

UnquietDad · 30/05/2007 12:03

It just seems very odd that we accept that everyone is different and yet people want to perpetuate a school system in which everyone is given the same kind of education.

Anmd why is it that specialism for the particularly talented in sport, drama or music is seen as good, and yet as soon as anything academic comes into the equation, that's elitism?

beckybrastraps · 30/05/2007 12:04

What method would you like to see in place of the 11+

UnquietDad · 30/05/2007 12:07

I'm not saying I have an easy answer, but there has to be something better than what's currently in place. I didn't do an 11+ - I was selected for a grammar school at the age of 13 by continuous assessment.

Azure · 30/05/2007 12:15

Back to the OP my London borough has decent secondary schools which are Catholic or girls (or both). Unfortunately I have two non-Catholic boys and their only options are dismal. I think it's shocking discrimination based on religion or sex.

beckybrastraps · 30/05/2007 12:18

Ah, but nobody trusts teacher's assessments these days do they? It would have to be soemthing supposedly objective. And I think there are great difficulties in finding an objective measure of academic potential which cannot be improved by practise/tutoring.

roisin · 30/05/2007 12:22

Why do you ask GDG?

We are not in a grammar school area. Last year the GCSE results (5 A*-C) for the four schools in the town were:
A: 15%, W: 31%, P: 32%, T: 38%
I think those results speak for themselves.

In addition there is:
B: A catholic school: 51%
C: An independent school: 84%

D: And the nearby town (c.6m away): 51%

B is extremely hard to get into if you have no RC connections.

Needless to say, D, is very popular; it selects purely on the basis of distance, so houses on that side of town have an advantage.

UnquietDad · 30/05/2007 12:22

The OP has an interesting question, and the answer is, of course, yes, there's competition. Loads of it. And it ultimately depends how much money you have and how good an area you can afford to live in.

I also wonder what the effect is of the lack of sixth-form in secondary schools. Thanks to Blunkett and his leftie chip-on-the-shoulder cronies, all sixth forms were scrapped in Sheffield apart from those in the affluent south-west postcodes. Doesn't exactly advantage kids who are academic and want to do A-Levels but happen to live in one of the huge council estates to the north and east of the city, does it? Oh, but of course, the council would say, they have the College. How convenient - should you wish to do an NVQ in catering or bricklaying. "Know your place" is the message being sent out here...

UnquietDad · 30/05/2007 12:23

Whatever system of selection there is, it would be better than selection by mortgage. Which is what we have at the moment.

roisin · 30/05/2007 12:27

Oh I agree completely UQD. All the schools in our area are 11-16. The sixth form is very good, but for many children they have to wait until they get there to encounter very many 'academically-minded' teachers.

JoolsToo · 30/05/2007 12:31

just to throw in another argument and I'm genuinely interested to know this - teachers, how do you select the school you would like to teach at? Do you avoid those schools with a poor reputation or are you champing at the bit to get in and change things?

Also, one would assume that as in all things some teachers are better at it than others, so do these teachers tend to be snapped up by the 'better' schools?

Original poster

Gobbledigook · 30/05/2007 12:33

Wow Roisin. Our options look like this (bearing in mind we have boys so the girls schools are out!)

Boys state grammar - 98%
Mixed state grammar - 97%
Boys catholic college - 90% (so out for us)
Boys independent selective - 59%
Mixed Technology college - 54%
Mixed local comp - 40%

I guess I'm just interested to hear how things go in other areas as I was brought up here and am obviously now putting my children through the same system so I don't really know any different.

OP posts:

Original poster

Gobbledigook · 30/05/2007 12:34

That's only results though isn't it - there is more to selecting a school than that.

OP posts:

beckybrastraps · 30/05/2007 12:36

That's a bit of a cop out, if you don't mind me saying.

If you want selection, I think you have to be pretty clear what you want to select for.

The 16+ thing is a bit of a dilemma for me. I have always taught in schools with a sixth form,but now live in an area with 11-16 schools and some excellent sixth form colleges. My children will be fine - the schools are good - but as a teacher thinking about my next job it is tricky. I like teaching across the age range, and the ability range. In a previous job I taught 50% A level, and it got a bit dull really. But no A level...

roisin · 30/05/2007 12:40

ROFL at your results compared to mine GDG!

The independent looks very poor, doesn't it? I suppose that's what happens when your have good grammars creaming off the top ability levels for a free education.

Having said that 40% and 54% from the 'non-cream' students looks bloody fantastic compared to our results, doesn't it?!

Are there really no other schools?

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