End of year reminder: Flightpaths are bollocks, schools giving ‘working at’ 9-1 GCSE grades to KS3 kids are bullshitting

[noblegiraffe]

Basically that.

If your kid comes home with a report with a wanky flightpath on it, take it with a hefty pinch of salt. There’s no science or data behind it.

If your KS3 kid comes home with a report that says they are currently working at a GCSE grade 4 in Science (or worse a 4+, implying technical accuracy), then know that it is made up, no one knows what a grade 4 in science (or any subject really) looks like, and applying GCSE grades to kids who aren’t studying GCSE courses is just nonsense.

How do you know they are her weakest subjects when you can’t compare grades between subjects?

Near top of the year group means different things in different schools

I never said it meant anything...

It’s a factual statement from the teacher from the teacher in that school - I don’t put any value on it.

Well said, OP. It's all nonsense...and I'm a secondary science teacher!

TheFrendo, I hope so... she does enjoy maths - she will easily pick up pages of maths homework and just do it.

Whereas with her weaker subjects, the ones she doesn’t enjoy the same way - she is not motivated to the do the work to the same standard.

Noble, she doesn’t consistently get high scores/marks in the exams for these subjects.

So pleased to read this and know that I am not a lone voice in the wilderness.

Very experienced teacher and marker. Still would say my 'predictions' and working ats are, at best, slightly informed guesswork. But can I get the deputy head to see that? Can I balls.

Well said Noble. In my subject, the first cohort has just taken the new specification GCSE. Results will be out in August. I need to give out current and target grades but my subject covers 3 distinct strands and students can be amazing at one but really poor at the other 2. In all likelihood, those who are good at all 3 will get the highest grades, but until August, I cannot be sure what a grade 9, 7, 5 or 3 looks like. To expect me to use those grades at KS3 is nonsense and thankfully we don't have to do it. It is bad enough at Y9 when they are on the GCSE courses and we are expected to guess...

My DD has just finished year 9 and her report is a load of crap! I’m a teacher myself and I can see the school don’t have a clue what they are doing!

DD is dyslexic and although the primary school were fully aware of this and had beenbiven all the detailed reports to support it. They failed however to apply for any special considerations so DD didnt get the extra time she is entitled to. Secondary school have done their assessments and she gets 25 extra time, a reader ( is a computer) and she uses a computer in lessons and in exams. We have also been paying for outside specialist support and she has made huge, huge progress in the time since leaving her primary school.

Despite all of this her school only use Fisher family trust data to predict year 11 grades. Dad got 4 in English and Maths sets and somehow has a whole set of predicted grades all at level 3. This includes art, design and PE! It makes me sooooooo cross that they will not look at her actual work since joining the school.

Be use she is obviously hitting extractions to get 3’s (and a above!) the school could not care less. We get no info with regard to how she is actually doing, what tbe tutor could give extra support in, absolutely nothing! Her KS report simply said on track for end of year 11 levels - not remotely helpful!!!

This is an Ofsted outstanding school
apparently. So basically I know she is working above her predicted levels but by how much? Who knows as school
Will not communicate anything!!!!!

So just to clarify, what do all the teachers here think should go onto reports in KS3?
And what strangely happens when teachers are promoted to SLT that means schools don't provide it?

Sorry that post is full of typos - I’m still so cross I can’t keep calm when I talk about it.

Malbec - your subject sounds very like music. Ds has been predicted Grade 8 but I know he hasn’t yet covered composition.

Dd on the other hand is amazing at composition and we were told she was producing GCSE standard work in Year 7/8. But her set works knowledge was a lot more sketchy so who knows what she’ll get come August.

I am SLT but not in charge of data.

If it were up to me, reports would detail what a child can and can't do. I might include percentage or numerical scores on a well designed test. But predicting is getting less and less reliable. It's quite scary - I used to be able to look at a class and tell you who was going to get a C, and now I haven't a bleeding clue!

If it were up to me, reports would detail what a child can and can't do.

Do you mean actual words ?

Wouldn't that be astronomically time consuming?

I'm a Luddite. When I first started all reports were in words and were written out by hand....

Even ticking a list of statements would be more meaningful than a sodding flight path

Well spotted Alexander! Guilty as charged.

It depends on the exam board. I have a y11 who passed grade 8 with merit in year 7. They played grade 5 pieces for their performances and we gave them full marks BUT the mark scheme for GCSE is not the same as for music exams. We have actively discouraged them from performing more difficult repertoire because there is so much more scope for losing marks than playing something they are completely at ease with.

We only have 2 set works, but there is a lot of wider listening styles to cover. I would focus on making connections between music they play (in lessons, ensembles) or hear and the set works/styles. The faster they can do that, the better they seem to get on.

what do all the teachers here think should go onto reports in KS3?

Well that’s the billion dollar big fat question that the DfE abdicated on isn’t it? Hoping that schools would figure it out for them really hasn’t worked.

This guy has some interesting ideas about reporting test data: medium.com/@mrbenyohai/the-difference-between-measuring-progress-and-attainment-7269a41cdd8 I’m not sure parents would appreciate the finer points though.

I think it would certainly be useful to report end of year exam score, average of all students who took that exam (not just class), and the top mark (not sure about reporting the bottom mark).

Sounds like a good idea noblegiraffe

AQA Malbec (Clock & Beatles). Ds’s previous school did Edexel with their trillion different set works but he moved after a Year 8)

Both are singers first study. I know dh who is a vocal coach & teaches degree courses despairs over the marking criteria as what is deemed to be an easier piece according to GCSE criteria can actually be very difficult in terms of actual vocal technique.

Noble - ds’s previous school (selective)used to report the year median result.

Wow - My son’s school seems to be pretty sensible.

KS3 reports have an effort grade, an assessment % (even for PE!), the year average %, a general comment on what they have learnt and how they were assessed and a brief personalised comment mainly concentrating on what they can do to improve.

No GCSE predictions until KS4 and even then no predictions higher than an 8.

Brilliant thread noble.

Thankfully my school hasn't gone down this route of pseudo grades at ks3.

So just to clarify, whatdoall the teachers here think should go onto reports in KS3?
What are the able to do well.
What do they need to continue developing in order to make progress.

Those 2 pieces of information are all that really matters.

I have some y7s who are writing essays on texts that would 'get a 6' on the GCSE marl scheme based on qualitt. But it's not a grade 6 at gcse because the assessment conditions aren't the same, I don't make them do closed book exams etc.
Don't get me wrong, could I drill a y7 student in how to answer gsce papers? Probably. Is that the same as actually teaching them? No.

All test scores tell you is how a chils performed on a test written by a teacher. Timmy is one of the 'lower' groups in my school but would be middle or higher at another local school. Any teacher at another school who thought 'Timmy got 39/40 on our tesr and is top of the year group so must be a grade 7 student' would be talking nonsense.

I think I could reasonably tell you where I think my y7s will be by y11, but it is no more than educated guesswork based on my knowledge of their work and their dispositions as learners.

Haven't read the whole thread but I can honestly say that I have found every grading on every report I received in secondary soooo confusing.

At one parents evening I asked a teacher why, if DS had done so well, his grade was lower than on the last report and he said he had no idea. If even teachers can't understand them how can parents or children.

I looked back at my report from the equivalent year 30+ years ago - it just gave an exam result, class position and said "good".

Told me all I needed to know really. I feel sorry for teachers grappling with the huge amount of work needed to produce the reports we get now which are v confusing.

Maisy I think I could reasonably tell you where I think my y7s will be by y11, but it is no more than educated guesswork based on my knowledge of their work and their dispositions as learners

To be honest, I think that is what a lot of parents want. I know I do. You teachers might feel you are clueless on this, but I don't buy it. You have a lot of experience of a lot of kids. Your guess is going to be way better than any parent's guess. We as parents want your guesses. Even with the new GCSEs your stab is going to be way better than mine.

What they are the able to do well. What do they need to continue developing in order to make progress. Those 2 pieces of information are all that really matters.

I agree this is important for the teacher and the student. And it is important for 'hands on parents'. But a lot (the majority?) seem to be hands off by secondary school judging from these threads. Also, personally I can find this information by looking at DDs tests / assessments / books. But I can't judge whether she is looking like she'll get over the finishing line to a GCSE pass (or high grade).

Without having some clue in KS3, how are we meant to help pick GCSE options? I know enjoyment comes into it, but likelihood of success does too.

DS's report just states grade for attainment (outstanding, excellent, good, requires improvement, serious cause for concern. Good is minimum acceptable standard) and grade for effort with 5 the top and 1 bottom - 3 is acceptable standard. there is also target section which either suggests pre-reading or work on areas which require improvement

I’m not sure a guess from a teacher will tell you that either. Especially for pupils around the borderline. And for everything except English and maths there is no set of results to compare it against.

I’m not sure most teachers could give you an accurate guess for which side of the ‘good’ pass borderline a fair number of their year 11s fall this year. Making an accurate prediction for ks3 pupils is a whole other level of inaccurate.