End of year reminder: Flightpaths are bollocks, schools giving ‘working at’ 9-1 GCSE grades to KS3 kids are bullshitting

[noblegiraffe]

Basically that.

If your kid comes home with a report with a wanky flightpath on it, take it with a hefty pinch of salt. There’s no science or data behind it.

If your KS3 kid comes home with a report that says they are currently working at a GCSE grade 4 in Science (or worse a 4+, implying technical accuracy), then know that it is made up, no one knows what a grade 4 in science (or any subject really) looks like, and applying GCSE grades to kids who aren’t studying GCSE courses is just nonsense.

[Clairetree1]

the target grade is the expected minimum progress at the end of the year based on KS2 results. Ks2 results predict final GCSEs, no anything in between, no end of year grades, just end of year 11 grades

[AlexanderHamilton]

We don’t get working at grades at all in Year 9. The school has started the GCSE curriculum. We get a behaviour grade & an on track for grade which the explanatory notes say it’s the teachers professional opinion based on how the child is working at the moment.

Hence why I’m very worried about English.

[maz99]

Clairetree1, a target and current grade for the current year.

I don’t understand why anyone would expect or even want a prediction of GCSE grades for year 7/8 child... a lot can change in that time.

My DD is getting 70%+ in most of her maths & science assessments, that tells me that she is quite capable in those subjects and deserves the grade 6/7 that I was told in January at parents evening she was on target for at the end of the year.

But it doesn’t make me think that she is going to get those grades at GCSE.

I see the grade on her report as the grade of her achievements during the year.

[noblegiraffe]

My DD is getting 70%+ in most of her maths & science assessments, that tells me that she is quite capable in those subjects and deserves the grade 6/7 that I was told in January at parents evening she was on target for at the end of the year.

No no no! I could design a maths assessment that a student who was on target to fail GCSE could get 70%+ in. That result means nothing in the context of GCSE grades or how capable your DD is at those subjects.
Your being told that your DD is working at a grade 6/7 in Y8 is exactly the sort of nonsense I’m talking about in this thread.

[AgentHannahWells]

What annoys me is that there is a fixed group of kids in DS school who are targeted for going to a top uni and get taken on trips, extra activities etc to encourage this. All based on sats or Y7 cats 'predicting' GCSE grades. Now at the end of Y8 my DS wishes he was in that group as he gets same scores on class tests etc, but tough shit kiddo they chose the group in Y7. He'd really benefit from it as neither me nor his dad went to uni. So it feels like his report means Jack shit anyway because his path has already been set.

[maz99]

Noble, the grades are expressed as internal 9-1 grades, and the school have clearly stated these are NOT equivalent to GCSE grades.

[noblegiraffe]

NOT equivalent to GCSE grades.

Oh dear god how confusing is that? She’s on a grade 6 which sounds like a GCSE grade 6 but isn’t a GCSE grade 6, it’s a different grade 6. Actually at GCSE we expect her to fail/get a grade 9, but you won’t have a clue because our internal system sounds like she’s a middling student.

[maz99]

Noble, if a student is consistently getting 35 out of 40 questions correct on all assessments, what does that tell you?

If those results don’t count for anything, then why even do them?

[PerspicaciaTick]

My DD's y9 report just says whether she is working below, at, above or significantly above the expected level for pupils at her school. The school does have very high expectations of its pupils but so far no mention has been made of grades or target grades. I'm not sure if reporting will change as she moves into y10.

[Clairetree1]

if a student is consistently getting 35 out of 40 questions correct on all assessments, what does that tell you?

it tells you absolutely nothing at all, as a parent. It presumably tells the teacher where the student's strengths and weaknesses are. But it could be a test that everyone is expected to get 39 or 40 on, and 35 could be a major weakness, or it could be a test using GCSE questions in a class that hasn't studied GCSE, where 10/40 is seen as strong

[noblegiraffe]

It tells me nothing, tbh. If the kid is consistently getting 35/40 and everyone else is getting 40/40 it would tell me that
A) the test is too easy and
B) the student is prone to making silly mistakes

If they are getting 35/40 and everyone else is getting less then it would tell me that the student is doing pretty well for their class but it tells me nothing about how they are performing on a national scale.

If the class is setted by ability and different sets are given different tests then depending on which test they’re sitting it could mean that they’re weak at the subject, middling at the subject, or good at the subject.

If they’re mixed ability but the school is low performing then that would mean something different to if they’re mixed ability but in a high performing school.

And if they’re consistently getting 35/40 on a test that doesn’t test the same things in the same way as at GCSE, then it means nothing about GCSE performance (e.g. the test asks lots of closed questions and the kid is good at memorising facts, but GCSE has lots of problem solving which the kid isn’t very good at).

[maz99]

‘Not equivalent to GCSE’ tells me this is DD’s current level and understanding.
She could stay the same, improve or even drop down by the time she gets to GCSEs.

I don’t find this difficult to understand - possibly because my secondary education was outside of the UK and didn’t GCSEs. At the end of each academic year we were given a final grade in each subject, which was an aggregate of all grades we had received for coursework/exams (each with different weighting).

[TheFrendo]

if a student is consistently getting 35 out of 40 questions correct on all assessments, what does that tell you?

Where is the rest of the class? If most are getting high marks then the tests are too easy.

[Clairetree1]

Where is the rest of the class? If most are getting high marks then the tests are too easy

not necessarily, if it is to check learning and memory of facts, then 40 is what is expected, and 35 is way too low. if I've set factually learning as homework, and assess that as a test, 35 may well be the level at which i set a detention because hw has not been done.

[HarveySchlumpfenburger]

That would seem to be the sensible option Perspicacia.

Design your curriculum got each year group, figure out what the key things that you want them to know/be able to do are and then assess against that. There's no need to confuse the issue with numbers or letters.

[maz99]

I disagree Clairetree, it tells me that my DD is capable of the assessments that she is being given.

Whether the assessments are actually testing anything valid, well that’s down to the teacher/school.

I know in my DD’s last exam week, she was given GCSE level questions in English and maths. When her class got their maths results back, they were gutted because most of them got less than 10 marks.

All I can say, is that I see no value in being given a GCSE prediction in year 8. A lot can change between now and then.

I’m more interested in my DD enjoying learning all her subjects & participating in class, and her marks & grades showing that she is continually improving.

[Clairetree1]

I disagree Clairetree, it tells me that my DD is capable of the assessments that she is being given.

it doesn't really, if you don't know what she should have got in those assessments

[TeenTimesTwo]

I do find it useful to know whether the school thinks DD is on track to pass or fail at any subject though. It enables me to do intervention at home on subjects, and enables us to start thinking about GCSE options ready for choosing in 6 months.

[HPFA]

Where did all this obsession about targeting and grades start".

I have my school reports from Year 7 onwards (although it wasn't called that then). They have no grades at all - just things like "HPFA is working steadily" - meaning "can't remember who she is" and things like "has worked well but should speak up more in class"

The school only did O Levels so I guess that meant not having to make a decision about O Level/CSE but even so I never remember being advised about possible grades etc. At the last PE before the exams the Maths teacher told my Mum - "should definitely get the C - might get a B if the questions fall right" (I got a C) and that was it.

I don't idealise the 80s education - my feeling is that a bit more accountability was needed - but I wonder how we got from the one extreme to the other?

[maz99]

Clairetree, what do you mean by “if you don’t know what she should’ve got...”

Isn’t the whole point of end of term exams in year 7 & 8 is to find out what the students are capable of?

I agree TeenTimesTwo, I am using the grades just as a means to show me where my DD is doing ok and where she is struggling.

We chose options back in March/April, and her grades helped me have targeted discussions with some of humanities teachers.

[noblegiraffe]

If you think that there is any comparison/benchmarking of grades between subjects, maz then you’re most likely going to be disappointed.

A geography teacher might be giving 6s to students with a very different idea of what that means to a history teacher. ‘Oh she should take geography not history because she got a 6 in geography and only a 5 in history’. Not a chance that they can be accurately compared in that way...

[maz99]

TheFrendo, my DD is in a top set maths class (of 25), and the scores in her class are spread. There are usually at least 2-3 students that get higher scores than my DD, and sometimes more. My DD considers herself to be exactly in the middle of the class and is very happy with that.

But her maths teacher has told me she is higher than that, and is actually closer to the top of the class.

He also told me that DD’s maths set are a very able group, and that they are the top performers in Maths for the whole cohort (of 405) in year 8. I was also told the same by the year 7 maths teacher last year.

[noblegiraffe]

Near top of the year group means different things in different schools

[maz99]

Noble, I didn’t compare them in that way - I looked at the non GCSE grades on her report card and saw that they were her weakest subjects. And I used that at parents evening to discuss with the History & Geography teachers to find out which one would be less problematic for my DD at GCSE who doesn’t enjoy creative, essay type writing.

It was helpful to have that discussion, because my DD was going to choose modern history but the history teacher advised her to choose geography instead - more factual based writing required.

[TheFrendo]

Well, if she can maintain her position in the top half of the top maths set in a cohort of 405, she should do very well at GCSE.

There is a lot of new maths ground to cover over the next three years.