Last minute panic re state school - switch to private?

[SpoonsAndForks]

Because my son's state primary school went into special measures, we put him in private school for years 5 & 6.

He's now due to go into year 7 at state school this September but I'm having wobbles about it being the right school for him.

I have three options now:

1. Go ahead with current choice of state secondary
2. Go ahead with current choice but apply for 13 + (year 9) entry into private school
3. Keep him at current prep school (yrs 7 & 8) and apply for 13 + entry into next school

I'm quite keen on the number 2 option but can see some issues - he might not want to move if he's well settled with nice friends and also he might have slipped backwards and not be able to keep up with the kids who have been to private school all the way through.

Does anyone have any experience of switching from state to private at year 9?

Or do any of you have experience about worrying about this and it all working out just fine at the state school?

The state school is Ofsted good, and has a good reputation but I've been hearing some stories recently from other parents whose kids at the brighter end of the class are bored and disengaging. Only maths and english are streamed (not sure if this is the case for all state secondary schools?)

Only maths and english are streamed (not sure if this is the case for all state secondary schools?)

DD2 is in y8 at our local good comp. She is currently set for Maths, English, French, 3 Humanities.

The best performing comp in the area however only sets for maths - don't know how they do it, but they obviously know what they're up to!

I think it is unusual to only set for Maths at least by y9.

I also think you can buy an awful lot of focussed 1-1 tutoring with money saved from not sending to private school.

But it needs to be about your child and your choice of schools.

where does he sit academically?
can you comfortably manage private?

My DC's school only sets for maths. Their results are virtually identical to the secondary school nearby which has a similar intake profile, and sets in every single subject from day 1.

I moved schools a lot as a child. I think unnecessary moves are a bad idea. So I wouldn't start off thinking you will go for your option 2. That might be a fallback if the state school turns out to be awful.

Academically he's quite bright but wasn't at the top - he just missed (by 0.25) the passmark for the local grammar. So he'd be at the top of his new school.

I just (stupidly) made an assumption that there'd be a 'top set' as the school has an enormous intake and now I've found out at the weekend that it's only streamed for maths and english I'm worrying about him disengaging in science (one of his top subjects) and other subjects.

Interesting to hear that others know of state schools that don't stream and still get good results, that's reassuring.

I'm awaiting a job offer today - I've been offered it informally but need the paper offer - if I get that then I can just about stretch to private, but it will mean other sacrifices (not finishing the house I'm doing up, not holidaying abroad). It's difficult to know whether it's worth paying the money for private when it will be a stretch.

When I say 'the house I'm doing up' - it makes it sound like I have some separate house somewhere...it's just my house that I live in, that was pretty dilapidated when we bought it!

Talk to him and see what he wants, he has to be happy at the end of the day which is more important

I think the point about having 1-1 tuition is a good alternative

smile15 before talking to him I need to be sure I'm happy to pay for independent school, which I'm not 100% sure of at the moment.

I'm trying to work out my own pros / cons without confusing him (yet). If I get to the stage in my thought process where I think private is definitely a workable option for us then I'd involve him in the conversation.

Earlier in the year he'd said he didn't want to stay at his current school but now he's learning more about what's on offer in year 7 & 8 he's saying he wishes he was staying (which is another reason I'm reconsidering my initial choice).

We went from prep school to state (grammar) in year 7 and have just accepted a conditional offer for private again for year 9.

I wish we'd just kept him at the prep as they would have done all the prep for the 13+ and now we're going to have to do it at home.

Our reasons for moving him are poor behaviour at the school, poor range of non-academic subject, lack of sport, poor teacher retention, books not being marked, large class sizes. I think he'll get significantly better GCSE results at the private school. Although we may move him back to state for A levels.

I can't imagine in your case, how they would be able to differentiate the work sufficiently in all the non-streamed subjects to push your son.

Thanks for posting underneaththeash, interesting to hear your experience. With the state school you tried, what was your perception of the school before your DS started there? Did it have a good reputation?

I've now emailed the state school to ask them about streaming and have voiced my concerns and asked how they'd address those concerns. I'll be interested to hear their point of view.

Dc independent school only sets partway through year 7 for Maths. English not until year 9. Don't assume it would be much different on that score. If you plan to move for year9 presumably there is an entrance test which the state school will not prepare for and there will be relatively fewer places to compete for. What does the prep school advise are his chances?

I moved mine from prep to state at year 7. No issues at all, they sit comfortably around the middle of the top set in those subjects which are set. If it’s a fairly academic state school then by year 10, it won’t matter if they’re only set for maths and English as they’ll be taking subjects they’re interested in and will crack on. Eldest on track for nothing lower than a 7 and the majority 8’s with a couple of nines. Money well saved

'Money well saved' is a very appealing sentiment careerontrack.

I keep thinking about how much university help / own mortgage paying off / other stuff all those ££££s could buy if I don't spend it on secondary education!

Then the other half of my brain comes along and tells me horror stories about DS getting in with the wrong crowd and / or getting bored and disengaging.

What do you have to suggest he will be bored or disengaged? Try to ignore year 7, they’re finding their feet, trying to fit in, being clowns and learning how to move around a big new school. There is a bit of low level messing about but I know that happens at private schools too having spoken to teachers at our old prep school which goes through to 18

I would say that by mid year 8 they tend to have found their friends and they know which ones they want to hang about with. Since year 7 my eldest has had WhatsApp groups called things like English homework, Maths top set test prep etc. Last week for the year 10 exams he pinged all night from the GCSE history WhatsApp group where they were all revising together. If it’s a good school and he’s sensible he’ll find the people he wants to mix with and the work he wants to do.

careerontrack I met up with someone at the weekend, her son is at the school, she told me about how the lessons aren't streamed, that he's bored and disengaged, particularly in science when he seems to spend a lot of time explaining the experiments to the less able.

He's a very bright boy (probably slightly cleverer than my DS) and wanted to be in with the 'cool kids' so chose not to go to any of the sessions for the gifted and able (these are separate lectures and session) and didn't want to draw to anyone's attention that he was clever. He went through a phase of going to the local park with the bad boys to do drugs.

This makes me feel like culturally it isn't 'cool' to be clever at this school. Though the school is the local one with the good reputation - when you say the name everyone automatically says 'oh that's a fantastic school'.

Also I've seen the enormous difference in standards between where my DS was at his state primary (losing interest, disengaging) to where he is after two years of private primary (doing really well, proud of his work, keen with confidence and a sense of commitment to his work).

The main difference I have seen between my DD’s school (Private) and the local comp ( where a lot of her friends go) is that it’s cool to be clever and work hard at her school but not at the comp.
Obviously this is not necessarily the case in all state comps
Having said that if Private will be a struggle I would be very wary
Is doing an in year transfer to Private if it doesn’t work out possible?

OP - my DD2 attended the local state school that sets only for maths. The school got their good results by heavy-duty cheating on controlled assessments, with children heavily supported by teachers in ways they should not have been. It's important to be aware that up til this year (results coming out next month) all subjects except maths at GCSE had a strong controlled assessment component, and thus were open to significant cheating. This means that it's currently difficult to know whether a school's good results were dependent on cheating or not.

Also, for strongly academic children, GCSE and in some cases even A level results may not show the true level of their learning, because of the ceiling effect (i.e. two children may both have A* grades, yet one can be very much more knowledgeable and accomplished than the other as a result of a better school.) While this is unlikely to matter for most universities, it could make a difference for Oxbridge.

Ds1 is in the top performing comp in our area. They set for maths in Y7 and the most able at French are allowed to take 2 foreign languages which effectively creates a set for those. Going into Y8 he'll be set for science too. No more sets then til Y10.
I assume the school gets its results by excellent teaching and hard work.

Do you have some research to back up that last statement kesstrel because it smells like bullshit to me.

If he is in a good prep school keep him there. It can be tricky to get back into the private system, especially if he isn't gifted. Why rock the boat?

www.cem.org/attachments/publications/GCSE%20performance%20of%20independent%20school.pdf

Search for "ceiling effect".

The existence of a ceiling effect for GCSEs and A levels is well known among those who specialise in this area. Oxbridge receive on average 5 applications per place, most of whom achieve the required grades. The university admissions process uses interviews and exams to try to distinguish between this large number of applicants who are indistinguishable by their A* grades. While raw IQ will also play a part here, it seems obvious that those pupils whose education has given them more depth and breadth will be more likely to gain a place via this process. This could be provided by a state or an independent school, of course.

I had a quick look through that document.
As I understand it, you can't distinguish in attainment figures between those who would get A and those who would if given the chance get A***. I can't see anywhere where it says that it impacts Oxbridge acceptance.

NB Cheating at CAs could just as easily have been done by independent schools as state ones. Indeed one could surmise (not that I would) that independents would have more staff available to 'coach' pupils through science assessments, prep for MFL writing etc.

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Well you can dispense with the ceiling effect issue as GCSEs are now graded by number 1-9 with a 9 being apparently very difficult to achieve. OP, you have a place at a good state school. It's free. Why not try it and see how it goes? You can always go private again from Year 9/10 if you're not happy... I teach in a private school and my DS is in top sets at local comp and is learning and progressing just as well as similar ability kids in the private school.

I had a chat with DS this evening, not to give him any choices but more to find out how he was feeling about going to the (state) school in September. It was the first time that he's properly articulated his worries to me - some of them I think can be overcome. He's worried about not knowing anyone in his tutor group and being stuck with them for the next five years (he knows a few boys going to the school but they've been put in different classes). Obviously he will make friends so that is not a reason not to go.

The other worry that he is is that the work will be too easy for him as that was the impression he got on the transition day and also now we've found out there's no streaming (he's streamed at his current school). He says he can't see how it will work to have the mixed ability groups working all together. This worry is of course the same as mine, but both of us could be worrying for nothing.

I'm wondering whether to go ahead with our state choice and assess it as we go along, particularly towards the end of the first term, with the option of moving him back to his prep if the first term shows that he's finding the lessons un engaging. And of course, staying on if it's working out well.