Last minute panic re state school - switch to private?

[SpoonsAndForks]

Because my son's state primary school went into special measures, we put him in private school for years 5 & 6.

He's now due to go into year 7 at state school this September but I'm having wobbles about it being the right school for him.

I have three options now:

1. Go ahead with current choice of state secondary
2. Go ahead with current choice but apply for 13 + (year 9) entry into private school
3. Keep him at current prep school (yrs 7 & 8) and apply for 13 + entry into next school

I'm quite keen on the number 2 option but can see some issues - he might not want to move if he's well settled with nice friends and also he might have slipped backwards and not be able to keep up with the kids who have been to private school all the way through.

Does anyone have any experience of switching from state to private at year 9?

Or do any of you have experience about worrying about this and it all working out just fine at the state school?

The state school is Ofsted good, and has a good reputation but I've been hearing some stories recently from other parents whose kids at the brighter end of the class are bored and disengaging. Only maths and english are streamed (not sure if this is the case for all state secondary schools?)

I agree with teen. There was a situation at Eton last year where the pupils were leaked an actual exam question in advance.
www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/30/eton-pupils-marks-disallowed-over-second-exam-paper-leak.
Cheating by schools could happen in any type of school.
BTW there is a difference between setting and streaming. In the former pupils are placed according to ability in individual subjects so a student who is excellent at Maths but average at English could be in the top set for Maths and middle set for English. Whereas with streaming an able maths pupil may not be in the top stream because they expect pupils to be excellent all rounders.
With sets you can move up (or down) but in streaming very few pupils move groups.
Can you really judge a school based on the opinions of one child. He may not be typical of the school.
The "it's not cool to be clever" phrase is often given as a reason for choosing a private education for your child but there are many state schools that aren't like this stereotype. My dd attended one.
PS There may also be drug taking and bullying in the independents sector too!

Have you checked the school's 'progress 8' for high achievers?
If they are being held back by lack of setting it should be evidenced by lower progress 8 values.
I would definitely check with the school re when and how they set - don't go making decisions based on hearsay.

NB usual terminology

• setting per subject so can be top set maths, bottom set English (or group of strongly related subjects such as Hist/Geog/RE)
• streaming across everything so e.g. top stream, middle stream, bottom stream and if you are ace at Maths but rubbish at English then they have to compromise.
• schools can stream and then set within the stream

It is generally easier to move sets than move streams as obviously you are only moving for one subject rather than all.

x-post

Thanks catslife and Teen - it's really good to understand the difference between setting and streaming.

I'll go and see if I can find the progress 8 score for high achievers (can't remember seeing high achievers mentioned before but hopefully I could get this from the school if not online).

Good to hear that your dd attended a school where it was ok to be clever catslife.

@TeenTimesTwo - do you know if it's possible to find the progress 8 score for high achievers anywhere on the government school comparison site? I can't find it so far. I can see the regular one (no high achievers mentioned). Is this a standard thing (ie if I ask the school will they know what it is I'm asking for or do I need to offer a definition of 'high achiever')?

On the government school comparison site you can look at detailed data for the school (the link is at the bottom of the school details summary at the top of the page). If you open the spreadsheet you can then search for "Progress 8" and it gives you the low, high and achievers progress scores (as well as those for maths, English, disadvantaged pupils and as much other data as you could want!)

My DD goes to a state school, it’s results are the same as the big local selective private school, it only has sets for maths. It’s not true to say all state school have a non-achievement attitude, in her school it is very much cool to be clever. We considered private but decided state with Tutors if required.

Scroll down and you get to:
Results by pupil characteristics

Expand the 'Prior attainment section'.
The attainers are pre-defined based on KS2 results

Thanks both - I'd been looking at the school against other schools and hadn't realised there was more data on each school's page (d'oh!).

The progress 8 score and confidence interval for high prior attainers is 0.54 (0.32 to 0.76) - any of you know if that is good or not?

Interesting Namelesswonder thank you.

The score for boys goes down to 0.42 (0.22 to 0.62).

My local grammar is 0.69 and that’s “well above average” and that’s in a school where many would say Progress 8 is more difficult to attain above average as you are starting with high attaining children. The scores you quite don’t seem too bad, but not stellar. How many % are high achieving? That’s a really important stat. Even secondary moderns around me have well over 30% high achievers. The data on progress should be labelled “average” or “well above average”.

I think one of the most important things you are overlooking is that children are not well served by chopping and changing schools. They do much better when settled.

Personally, if your prep goes to 13, they do CE or own school exams at 13. I think you need a strategy and you should stick to it. I wouldn’t choose a prep and then go state if most of my DCs friends were staying on to 13 and I forced my child to leave at 11 but if you cannot afford it, you need to be honest.

Private education is expensive. You really should not even think about alternating. Your DS would be like an educational yo-yo and you would be continually breaking up his friendships. He’s already telling you he wants to stay where he is, with friends, and have the next two years in a stable environment. So, make your decision and stick to it, but it shouldn’t be b. Go Private at 13 or state at 13 if you can get in.

Never assume that state children are not bright and a school will not give them suitable work. Have you thought your DS may have said that so he didn’t go to the new school? It’s almost certainly rubbish. Unless he’s a genius, he will be fine. If he is a genius then go for private school scholarships!

Don’t choose a school because one child is easily led and makes stupid choices. I always took the view that mine would not be led by others and were mature enough to make sensible decisions over friends and habits. Why would your DS be making poor decisions? Also drug taking happens in private schools - children have money! Parents take drugs too!

kesstrel

I fully agree with PP re 'cheating in CA' - it can/has happened at top independents as well as the poorest state. For many subjects though the CA was only worth a small percentage of the overall grade (my subject 25%) therefore students still need to perform in the exams

I’d say (2) is the worst choice. In my experience children are fine with change if it’s part of a clear plan - but you’d be moving him into a situation where he wouldn’t be able to commit to the new school because he was expecting to move on and he would also be disadvantaged in preparation for the proposed 13+ move. It would be awkward socially and academically. (Because the state school, however good, would not be geared to 13+ exams.)

You do perhaps need to commit to a plan that keeps him on one defined path till 13+ at least. They do care a lot about friends and fitting in at that age. How does he feel about progressing to the top of the prep school? Some boys might mind missing that, others are keener on widening horizons earlier. But he hasn’t been there long enough to be bored, one would hope.

Are u sure they don't stream later. By dds school only streams math English in year7 but in year 8 streams for science

2. Go ahead with current choice but apply for 13 + (year 9) entry into private school

Worst option of the 3
DS’s current school will be prepping him for CE. Different curriculum. Does your DS currently do French (or other mfl), Latin/Greek? DS will be ahead of the others for the mfl and chances are the state school won’t do Latin/Greek.
Some Indie senior schools do allow state entrance applicants to opt out of certain papers, if their current school doesn’t offer the subject.
I would check with the indie senior schools you’re interested in re their admission criteria.

That would be an awful lot of chopping and changing for DS (academically and socially).

0.54 is an excellent Progress 8 score. High achievers are clearly not being failed by this school!

Agree. 0.54 is an excellent score. It means that for the 8 main GCSEs pupils on average did half a grade better in each of them than children with similar KS2 scores nationally. (I think).
So if on average similar pupils were getting AAAABBBB then at this school they are getting AAAAAAAA. (Or if you are more keen A A A A A A A A has gone to A A A A A A A A )

Excellent progress 8 score. My dds are at a state comprehensive with a +.51 score; apparently putting it in the top 5% of state schools in the UK. Maths is streamed and then in Y10/11 science is too. Otherwise they are in mixed ability classes with a tailored curriculum and each have a targeted grade course. Dd1 who is in Y9 has just passed an English past paper with 93% (two marks off a 9) and that’s in an unstreamed class. All her grades are predicted 7 and up.

Quite happy to be saving money.

I moved my kids from prep to "Ofsted good" State schools, they are now y8 /y10

School has been very good, yes there have been issues but generally they are doing well and (most importantly) are happy and like school.

There is definitely not a culture of it not being cool to do well, there is quite a competitive element about grades to be truthful, and the kids wanting to beat their friends' scores.

Yes, it is not all singing and dancing like the prep, but we are saving £30k a year (!!!) So am happy to ferry them to cool after school stuff myself.

The school sets, but does not stream, and that makes sense to me.

Visit the school and if you can, chat with the leadership team. Our school has a very good team, really fab head of year.

One of my DC is very academic, but has not complained of not being challenged. His maths teacher gives him a level and uni level challenges when he finishes his work early.

Is your state school nice? Good atmosphere? Confidence inspiring? Can you see DS there?

My DS1 did not know anyone, and it was the making of him. He made lots of new friends.

Please bear in mind that he’s 11, he has no idea at this point if the work will be too easy for him or not. He’ll be studying new subjects and some of those will be easy and some won’t. I expect that even top set maths will be easy at the start as they assess all the children. You can’t make a proper judgement based on one term, you’ll need to give it at least a year for them to find their feet and settle down. Please don’t take an 11 year olds word that things are too easy, it’s different to CE at a prep school but ultimately if the school is getting the results then trust them that they know what they are doing

Private schools are one of the biggest things wrong with the UK. They're a social evil.

Cholka That's as maybe. But we all have to work within the system we have, and that includes private schools. I could say the same about grammar schools, but people who live in a grammar area have every right to use them if they think that a grammar is the best local option for their child.

Hmm, looks like I didn't phrase my post about controlled assessment cheating very well. I fully except that cheating can happen in all types of schools, and didn't mean to imply otherwise.

My point was simply that relying on GCSE scores to indicate that one school (of whatever type) gets as good results as another school MAY not be a reliable measure of the quality of either school. It certainly misled me about our local school. But once this year's results come out, such comparisons will be much more reliable.

accept!

Cricket Yes, of course students still need to perform in exams. But
a higher grade for that 25% will still often be more than enough to push the overall grade over the boundary into the next grade up.