Oh my naivety about grammar school areas...

[Walnutshell]

Just read Grammar School System Serves Middle Classes and thought "oh dear".

Just moved to grammar school area and while I had my reservations, I STUPIDLY thought that if ds was bright enough (he is only 18m right now) he would go to the grammar, otherwise a regular comprehensive. Regardless of my views on this education system, I accepted that this was part of moving to the area should we still be here in 10 years. Now I read this article (and OK, it's only one person's POV) and I'm wondering at my own naivety in presuming there would be an element of fairness in place allocation. I doubt we will have the cash (or philosophy) to provide hours of private tuition.

Again, "oh dear".

Would welcome thoughts from people in grammar school areas who have first hand experience - particularly those with average income...

But surely lefties ought to be delighted that somone who can afford private education chooses a state school. That's what they are always banging on about. Or does that only apply to sink schools, not good ones?

Ah, , in the good old days, private schools took in a substantial amount of the offspring of the rich who were not bright enough to pass an 11+ exam.

These days, would Princess Diana have got in bearing in mind her "Goodness, I'm as thick as plank" comment.

I suppose there must be private schools for the rich and bright and private schools for the rich and not very bright. If so, why can't we have the same system for those who can't afford private education.

Hatwoman - that is our view too. I will go the route of iving DS (now 9) some simlar papers (don't think actual past papers are available) but I don't want him to send his evenings cramming a tutor, when he could be doing lttle-boy things - like playing! If he gets in , fine, I won't worry about him keeping up, if he doesn't he'll go somewhere less pressured...

Sorry about the typos (I am not Kookacod), I mean cramming WITH a tutor)

Thank you for sharing??

I think the concept of having to RE-relocate on the basis of state education is rather wearying especially as it amounts to moving COUNTIES not just to the next town, but that's life I suppose.

I expect the sensible thing is to try and find a local view on this issue as we become more settled.

Or emigrate

I really don't think you need to worry so much at this stage, with your little one only 18 months old.

An awful lot can happen over the next 9 years, and there's no guarantee you'd be in the same part of the country then (certainly, we used to relocate every 2 to 3 years when the kids were little, for dh's job.)

Relax and put the whole grammar school thing to the back of your mind for a few years.

(BTW, the "thanks for sharing" comment was my attempt not to bite at essentially being called a rich bitch (which I'm not!)) - well, one of them is correct, but not both

Ah, I thought maybe it was and my apologies if I offended, but this is the very concern of my OP.

Hoping that we won't have to relocate, but as you say, one never knows!!! I'll keep researching this one though as I like to be informed if nothing else...

Was it on 'Have I got news for you' that I saw "The reason Labour parents want to abolish grammar schools is because they entrench advantage. The reason Conservative parents want to keep grammar schools is because they entrench advantage"....!!!?

TBH we're highly likely to be taking the 'emigration' solution as the whole secondary school thing here is such a greed/one-upmanship inspired mess! We joke about renting in Winchester (where all the comps are good) but that's Plan B. (We rent anyway because we can't afford to buy as we were stupid enough to work for the NHS- ANOTHER thread entirely!)

And actually, about that 'social class' thing-one can have working class parents yet be middle class oneself! That was the entire point of grammar schools: they took the academically bright offspring of working class miners/farmers/steelworkers (put your own blue-collar job in here) and educated them OUT of blue collar futures. Sadly, what we've now seen is those same now middle class parents making damn sure, via tutoring, private prep-schooling etc no other working class kid gets that grammar school place thus deprives THEIR DCs of their birthright.

In my family it was my father who rose via Newquay Grammar from a clay-worker's future to aerospace engineering. I went to grammar in 73, but, to be fair, of 30 of us in my class, ONE came from a private school and EVERY child in southern Wiltshire sat the 11+.

Yes, agree. Don't blame you for considering emigration. We would too if anywhere would have us...

I don't live in a grammar school town but we have a back door grammar system as out state schools are very segregated. The state school I teach in serves the very poorest of the town and we also take most of the children with learning and behavour difficulties. Infact we have taken kids from special needs schools classed as having moderate learning difficulties and they ahve gone into our top sets. There are then the more middle class schools that take in the brighter kids, the Cof E schools which openly state that they want bright middle class kids.

The closest we get to a comprehesive is our RC secondary school which takes kids across all abilities and social backgrounds but only if they have been to a catholic primary.

My friend's DD who has been bullied at our local comprehensive has just passed an entrance exam to get into a grammar school 200 miles away. She is a normal, brighter than average but not swotty kid and she didn't do any special preparation for the exam.
I will miss the family badly as the kid's mum is one of my closest friends but have to admire her dedication to her daughter in uprooting the family to give her a better chance.

re people who can't afford private education but don't want their bright child to go to the local comp

woman across the road from us - father works in a rehabilitation centre for offenders, mum does some sort of dance teaching - no way they could afford private school. (We are fairly close to the grammar kookaburra and jura are talking about).

The state primary school picked out that she was bright - and they advised her parents to put her forward for a bursary at a local private school. She went for it and got it and now has her entire secondary education paid for at a lovely private school.

There are other options.

Wow fox.

I suppose my main worry is that a child of average intelligence (cringing at term, but you know what I mean) and from a not-over-privileged background suffers whereas same average IQ from more-privileged background goes to grammar school.

And actually, it's not even so much the entry into the grammar, but the options left if this door is closed. IYSWIM.

Haven't read the whole thread, but I'd say whilst most kids in grammar school areas are tutored, there are plenty who get in without a tutor. You just buy the books from WHSmith and do the practise yourself at home.

Hi 👋🏼
i have just found this conversation and would like to know how did your child get on. They must be around 21 now.

Well which area did you move to? Please nice rich areas like Tunbridge Wells tend to have both good grammars and good secondary academies, because the parents read with the kids from an early age, talk to them and take an interest in education. That combined with ability has always had more effect on educational outcome, then the type of school. A lot of those secondaries also have top sets for the kids who either did not try for grammar or narrowly missed out.
You do not need to pay for tutoring if your child has the ability, but you do need to engage with your child’s education. That will be the case whether you live in a grammar school area or not. If they leave primary school with a really good foundation across the board, it is far easier to access the multiple subjects they need to take in secondary school.

"If there were sufficient grammar school places for the more academic" - unfortunately the world doesn't divide neatly into "more academic" and "less academic". If the grammar schools took 40% of the kids, there would be even more desperation to get into the grammars, because the intake at the other schools would then be predominantly lower achieving and less well supported at home.
The lower the proportion going to grammar schools, the better the ability spread at the comprehensives, and so the less it matters if your child doesn't quite make the cut, because the top sets at the comprehensive will still be aiming at top grades.

Let’s face it the entire education system favours people with more means - whether it’s money or the knowledge and mental capacity to work with the system.

That could be:
-paying for private education
-buying a house in a sought-after catchment area
-tutoring for 11+
-knowing when the entrance exams and banding tests are held for schools and getting your DC to them
-knowledge of schools with unusual admissions requirements and how to meet them
-ability to pay for private SEN assessments
-understanding the system and challenging it

(before anyone jumps on me, not saying people are “buying a diagnosis” but I’ve no doubt SEN kids with middle class parents who can afford the assessment benefit from getting ahead of the NHS queue and I have done so for my own SEN DC).

DId not notice this thread was started nearly two DECADES ago!!

It will still be interesting to know the outcome! Typically someone panicking about secondary schools when their DC is just 18 months old, will in all likelihood have made it to a very good university (if no underlying SEND). It is the parental push from the start that makes all the difference.

Actually it would be interesting to know where Op's child or indeed children did go, as it was stated that the move was to Torquay, Devon.
There are 3 Grammars here - Torquay Boys, Torquay Girls and Churston which is mixed.

@Walnutshell

if you are even still on Mumsnet

@OlderGlaswegianLivingInDevon @Araminta1003 @FishfingerFlinger Crikey, this was a blast from the past! I've been off M'Net for years. Reactivated my account to reply and say hello. So, Hello! Decades later and I've got a bit of experience under my belt. Hx

So...

where did your child or children go ?
that's if you were even still in Torquay by then ?

Wait So now tutoring your child is a problem?! What if you're good at a subject naturally and are tutoring your own child ? Is that considered tutoring or not