Oh my naivety about grammar school areas...

[Walnutshell]

Just read Grammar School System Serves Middle Classes and thought "oh dear".

Just moved to grammar school area and while I had my reservations, I STUPIDLY thought that if ds was bright enough (he is only 18m right now) he would go to the grammar, otherwise a regular comprehensive. Regardless of my views on this education system, I accepted that this was part of moving to the area should we still be here in 10 years. Now I read this article (and OK, it's only one person's POV) and I'm wondering at my own naivety in presuming there would be an element of fairness in place allocation. I doubt we will have the cash (or philosophy) to provide hours of private tuition.

Again, "oh dear".

Would welcome thoughts from people in grammar school areas who have first hand experience - particularly those with average income...

Another, more complete list here

OH F* she called me MIDDLE CLASS!!
Not me!
My dad and Grandad were miners, as was DP his dad and Grandads, we are as working class (and proud of it) as they come.
So our DD passed her 11 plus and got accepted into 2 Grammars and a Comp. SHE choose the Grammar because it finished earlier!! (LOL)
But, then again 10% of the kids in the area we live in pass there 11+ and I would say that very few (if at all) have any form of coaching.

Our ds is at grammar, and is the only one in his class who DIDN'T get any tuition. We just gave him some practice papers and let him get on with it.

If he hadn't passed, we definitely wouldn't have sent him to the Upper school, where the results are dire (50% AtoC passes, as opposed to 99% at the grammar.)

I don't think many of his classmates families will be average income - the first thing the Ofsted report says is that the children come mostly from very advantaged backgrounds and none are eligible for school meals.

I sadly don't think that grammars work to provide poorer, bright children with the best start in life - in most cases, it's the kids with parents who push them who get in and then get the parental support all through the next 7 years.

National Grammar Schools Association list of State grammar schools.

where would you have sent him if he had not got into the grammar mumblechum ?

Well, we would have sent him to a private school. £110k plus for the 7 years which would have been a ballache.

As he passed, we thanked him for saving us all that money by buying him a drumkit!

mumblechum, how did you find out that everyone else in your son's class was tutored - did it just happen to come up naturally in conversation? I haven't a clue whether my DS1's classmates were or weren't, but then I don't see their parents very often or know them that well.

The additional complication is that in some areas, the grammar schools are so oversubscribed that you don't just have to pass, you have to get top marks! Frankly the whole system is completely unfair, and all you can do is the best for your individual child. As I said on another thread, my children go to a very socially diverse primary school. 60ish kids in year 6, 25ish took the test, 11 passed. The ones that passed were without exception middle class children from "white collar" or professional families. And they were all either tutored, or had parents who knew where to get past papers and how to help their children prepare. You just have to look at the % of grammar school pupils on free school meals to see that the system completely fails the "bright but disadvantaged" child it was created to help. Grrrrrr -don't get me started!

The additional complication is that in some areas, the grammar schools are so oversubscribed that you don't just have to pass, you have to get top marks! Frankly the whole system is completely unfair, and all you can do is the best for your individual child. As I said on another thread, my children go to a very socially diverse primary school. 60ish kids in year 6, 25ish took the test, 11 passed. The ones that passed were without exception middle class children from "white collar" or professional families. And they were all either tutored, or had parents who knew where to get past papers and how to help their children prepare. You just have to look at the % of grammar school pupils on free school meals to see that the system completely fails the "bright but disadvantaged" child it was created to help. Grrrrrr -don't get me started!

Our ds mentioned it the other day at the dinnertable.
I think he's quite smug about the fact that he didn't get tutored, altho' to be honest, the tutor would just have done what I did, ie go through a few of the papers with him then let him just practice getting fast enough, so I'm not sure he really has that much to be smug about!

Katylet, you're absolutely right. You can tell just by wandering round the school that the kids there are not from socially disadvantaged backgrounds from their accents, vocabulary etc.

The whole point of grammar schools as I understand it is that they were there for bright kids who had no chance of going to private school.

That ethos has certainly died a death in this area, which is very sad.

Well, my son had no chance of going to a private school. I'm not sure you could call us diadvantaged, mind.

As well as the tutoring issue (I'm inclined to agree, mumblechum, that there's not much a tutor would have done that any reasonably educated parent couldn't) I suspect primary schools' gentle discouragement and omission to mention the grammar school option to parents who wouldn't find out about it for themselves may be skewing the intake.

Yes, certainly my ds's state primary was if anything discouraging and quite negative about the whole grammar school thing to everyone.

We live in SW London, where the only grammars schools are ridiculously oversubscibed, so one family entered their child for the 11+ in Bournemouth, and when he got in, relocated there...At our local state primary three got in in the first round and then another three poeple with offers dropped out ( I think there are about 100 places and usually about 1200 applicants.)
Don't know about other areas, but at this school you can't really coach children who aren't already very bright, just practice and use common sense exam technique.

Mumblechum lol at the drumkit!! You got a good deal!

There's a very bright boy in dd class. His mum didn't realize that you could buy past papers until a month before the exam. She went to a brance of Waterstones, couldn't find the papers and was too shy to ask for help so came away without them. Her son failed the 11+ I am convinced that had he had a few practice goes he would have passed. And before you ask, I didn't know about this until too late, or I would have helped her. It's a scandal. And it's a scandal that everyone who takes part in the system (including me) is complicit in.

That's really surprising, Katelyle....the main topic of conversation in the Year 6 playground for at least a year was the 11 plus, it seems inconceivable that anyone could somehow be out of the loop like that, however I suppose the parents at my ds's primary do fit the profile (mostly professional, Bucks parents)

I hope the boy who didn't get through is ok about it. If he's bright, he'll do well wherever he goes (I hope)

"The whole point of grammar schools as I understand it is that they were there for bright kids who had no chance of going to private school. "

There's middle class and there's well off though.... At the state grammar I went to a lot us had parents who were teachers, nurses, librarians etc - ie had educated parents who could probably have supported them to do well wherever they went, but certainly would have had no hope of affording private schools.

Historically, of course, lots of grammars did charge fees until the first half of the last century and were a mix of middle class and working class kids for most of the postwar period.

Oh, not in our playground, mumblechum - it was utterly bizarre! You had to know know someone really well before the subject was even raised! Next time, I'll handle it differently - but I'm not sure how. And when the results came out it wasl all very cloak and daggger too - it was a couple of weeks before I found out exactly who had passed! The school (otherwise excellent) adopted a "don't look now while we go through this distasteful process" attitude, and did not acknowledge the children who passed in any way. Which bearing in mind that it usually has a policy of applauding any achievement however minor (girl's football team only being beated by 1 instead of the usual 6 - that sort of thing!) was odd to say the least.

Two of my DSs took the 11+ and passed with no tuition. DD had a tutor for maths because the school told us she was no good. The tutor told us on the first meeting that she was fine and would certainly pass without tuition. Basically the primary school was crap but that's a whole different story.

We bought the practice papers from WH Smiths to get them used to the format of the tests, but the non verbal reasoning is bizarre and we couldn't "help" them because I can't actually do it!

I suppose it depends on the area but certainly none of the DSs friends were tutored. In fact the boys grammar has been undersubscribed until this year so everyone who wanted to go and passed the 11+ got in (different story for girls, sadly).

mumblechum..
drumkit.. FANTASTIC!!

I actually don't find the "drumkit" story laughable, I find it rather depressing. Almost "we could have afforded a private school, but phew, now we don't have to pay, crack the champagne" rather than my version which would possibly be "oh dear, now you will have to go to a shite school darling". Quite a different league I think.

That's not meant to be aggressive, but rather the point of my concerns.

Thanks for the interesting comments though, all.

Thank you for sharing, Walnut!

If your child is bright (eg, at age 9 has a reading age of 16 or so), he or she will get through the 11 plus just with a few practice papers. If not, and if private education isn't possible (and I would have been a bit reluctant, tbh, because although we'd have found the money, I don't in my lefty heart of hearts approve of them), then you still have plenty of time to move out of an 11plus area.

If I'd realised when we moved here 8 years ago exactly how much stress and aggro the 11 plus was, we'd have bought a house in the next valley where he could have gone to an excellent comp in Henley on Thames.

I haven;t read the article or the posts (so who am I to comment ) but I live in a grammar area (waves at kookaburra - I assume we're talking about the same one) my understanding is that it's heinously competive and loads of people pay for lots of tuition but that it's a risky approach - if they aren;t naturally up to it you could be consigning them to a really miserable few years in a very academic environment. the good news is, that contrary to common perceptions having a grammar school doesn;t necessarily make teh rest of the state schools around you of markedly lower standard. our nearest non-grammar school has in the last few years earned itself a very good reputation. If we're still in the area when dds hit 11 I'm going to take the attitude that if they get into grammar all well and good, but if they don;t then they wouldn;t have been suited to it. it's not the end of teh world.