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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

My son has the chance to drop Latin in Year 9 to study 'Classical Civilisation' instead. Is this dumbing down?

65 replies

tigermoth · 15/05/2007 21:33

This is from my son, who is now sitting in front of the keyboard:

as my mum has already said,i could drop latin to study classical civilisation in year 9. i want to drop it because i find the language far too challenging and i love history and classical civilisation is more history orientated. and i think i can get better marks in classical civilisation if i put in as much effort as i do in latin(which is, yes, quite a lot)!
back to my mum:

me, tigermoth, again....
I did not study latin at school, so feel inexperienced in giving advice. However I am wary of the dumbing down element in this and feel ds1 is capable of studying latin if he put his mind to it. I am aware that not many state schools nowadays make children do latin - ds's grammar school is in a minority. Is this a good or bad thing?

My husband studied latin at school and is adament that ds should not give it up for at least another year so he gets a proper grounding in it.

The school's letter about this states 'If your child gained a satisfactory latin exam result in year 8 we would strongly encourge them to persue latin in year 9 to give them the option of taking latin as well as or instead of classical civilisation at O level'. Also it says latin is 'a valuable basis for other languages, a discipline for clear thinking and a subject of intrinsic interest in its own right'

Ds gained a satisfactory result in his exams with very moderate revision effort. DS has just seem me type this and his head is nodding in agreement. He did not work hard to pass the exam.

So I do feel he is capable of studying latin if he had to, but is it worthwhile making him do it for another year or more?

OP posts:
portonovo · 16/05/2007 09:35

Another vote for the Latin here!

Kathyis6incheshigh · 16/05/2007 09:54

Stick with the Latin, Tigermoth's ds.

This is because:
1.If you do want to take your history further, eg do it at university, a bit of Latin could be quite useful.

2.What everyone has said here about how much it helps with other languages is absolutely spot on. The vocab helps with French, Italian and Spanish, as well as English, and the grammar helps with practically any other language (because it improves your ability to think about language in an abstract way).

3.Latin is hard but it is also respected. An admissions tutor or employer may be just as impressed by a B in Latin as an A in Classical Civilisation.

4.If you're interested in Classical civilisation in general, rather than just wanting the easy option at school, Latin will actually give you more ability to understand it. You can also follow up this interest far more easily by yourself than you could learn Latin by yourself.

I did a Classics degree myself and it was absolutely ace - doing Latin at school was the best decision I ever made. You are really lucky to have the opportunity to Latin - don't waste it.

bossykate · 16/05/2007 09:56

i am so glad i studied latin at school and would be thrilled if ds and dd had the chance to study it. sounds as though you could do both...?

Chattyhan · 16/05/2007 09:58

They did this at my school but classical civ. was for the ones who couldn't handle latin - i joined the school in yr 9 with no knowledge of latin so i did class.civ. with all the - how do i say this nicely - less bright children!

Kathyis6incheshigh · 16/05/2007 10:01

Also, forgot to mention, but when schools get stricter about swearing, as they are bound to do soon, Latin will be the only way you will be able to get away with it at school - 'pedicabo vos et irrumabo' anyone?

hannahsaunt · 16/05/2007 10:07

Fab to be able to do both - very complimentary. I loved doing latin and did it to Higher. Really helped in terms of grammatical constructs not only in English but also did French and German. Would have loved to have done a bit more than we did on the classical history side to marry with the pure language side. It helps that we had the most fantastic teacher as well.

Lilymaid · 16/05/2007 10:07

Keep doing the Latin unless the teaching is poor/DS finds it too difficult. Class Civ is interesting but it is less academically challenging. And, yes, it really does help with other languages and understanding grammar. In DS's school class civ was the choice of those who found Latin too difficult.

stleger · 16/05/2007 10:10

My dh, Latin is part of his job, was well impressed with the Keep on Latin lobby. My kids are lucky, they have no Latin but compulsory Irish instead...

Dandi · 16/05/2007 10:12

Agree with all the pro-Latin points.

Also, if you know some Latin, it adds a whole new dimension to the Harry Potter books. Loads of the spells and names are based on Latin - makes it much more fun.

Are you sorry you asked yet

Anyone want to start a new thread to talk about the Cambridge Latin course? Grumio est coquus...

spiker · 16/05/2007 10:12

I went the whole hog and did a degree in Classics. Stick with the Latin as long as you can pleeeease - it opens up so many other subjects. Yes it is more demanding, but that's no reason not to do something. All languages require some rote learning at first, but once you have that foundation you'll be reading history, science, poetry (some of it pretty filthy), epic, political speeches, philosophy... all in the original language and it's such a different experience to reading things in translation.

So yeah, what everyone else said!

mankyscotslass · 16/05/2007 10:16

I would say keep doing Latin....I did O grade and Higher Latin, and in 5th year did a "crash" course o grade in Classical Studies, which i imagine was similar to what your Ds wants to do? It was fairly straightforward to do as a one year course instead of a two year one. In syth year i also did a crash course in o grade Ancient Greek. Latin is probably a bettr grounding with the other coarse a nice to have....but there again i am biased!

DingALongCow · 16/05/2007 10:31

Latin Latin Latin.
I did Classical Civ A-level and we happened to get a good teacher who made us adore it (he also used the more obscure texts on offer), but I wish I had done Latin as well. I went on to study Ancient History at university and we had the choice of four other modules each semester. I chose two in Latin and ended up getting to degree level in two years and definitely wouldnt recommend that, that was blinking hard work. It would have been much easier if I had had some Latin beforehand. The other modules I took were in the Classical Civilisation degree course and they were so much easier than the other two subjects I was doing. I used to catch up on my Latin during the CC lectures and still consistently got higher marks than in the other subjects.

As others have said, reading things in the original Latin is so much better, a lot less sanitised for a start!! I have moved to another country and have found it so much easier to pick up French (which I had very little of before) thanks to the Latin. I also found it helps with my general spelling and grammar, whihc is very useful.

DingALongCow · 16/05/2007 10:33

Don't take the post below as illustrative of my grammar and spelling skills! I have been up all night with a teething daughter so am drooping somewhat!

tigermoth · 16/05/2007 22:31

this is tigermoths son:

to revenAK,

yes it is the cambridge latin course

OP posts:
maisym · 16/05/2007 22:38

keep going with latin but read up on all things to do with classical civ. Think about doing ancient greek later on.

clerkKent · 17/05/2007 13:11

This is what DS's Classics department says:

The fact is that a knowledge of Latin gives you enormous advantages:

In Law, Latin helps you to understand legal language and terminology, since our system of law is based on Roman models;
In Medicine, Latin and Greek provide the roots for terms used in anatomy, pathology, pharmacology and many other areas.
Oxford and Cambridge admissions tutors are constantly looking for ways to distinguish between applicants with straight A passes at A level, and are likely to give greater consideration to those who have Latin and Greek on their CV, since this means that:

they are sufficiently intelligent to handle what are still considered, and indeed proven* to be, some of the most difficult subjects on the school curriculum;
they have knowledge of the classical world, which gives them a broader and more secure context for contemporary studies;
they are the kind of students who seek out challenging and valuable lessons and are prepared to work hard, sometimes against the prevailing ethos of trendier, so-called 'soft options'.

LATIN ENHANCES YOUR CV

(and improves your chances of landing the job or university place you set your heart on)

There is no doubt that Latin is very highly regarded both by employers and by universities. Even though we hope to make the study of Latin as painless as possible, it is still viewed as a 'difficult' subject, which means that those who pursue it are thought to be more capable than most.

Furthermore, its rarity outside the public school system (not even all grammar schools continue to offer Latin) means that it brings extra prestige and distinction to your CV and university application. Of the boys who formed our first A level class in 2005-6, all but one applied to Oxford or Cambridge and at interview most of these were asked specifically about the fact that they were studying Latin. Even though none of them were actually applying for Classics courses, several of the interviews concentrated on Latin rather than the subject they were applying to read; and in every case they were made offers.

There is also strong evidence to suggest that the study of Latin of itself helps to improve your performance in many other subjects too...

LATIN GIVES YOU A HEAD START WITH ALL YOUR STUDIES

Latin develops your English

Your reading, writing and speaking of English is improved by studying Latin. It enriches your vocabulary, sharpens your grammar and instils a strong sense of organization.

Latin provides a solid foundation for the acquisition of other languages

Greek and Latin equip a person with the strongest single foundation for mastering Romance languages, modern inflected ones such as Russian and German, and even non-related tongues like Arabic, Chinese, and Japanese. Working with Latin and Greek broadens your notion of structures possible in languages other than English. In addition, Latin gives you a grip on about 80% of the vocabulary of the Romance languages ? French, Italian, Portuguese, Romanian, and Spanish.

Reading, writing, and translating Latin sharpens the mind

On account of their non-English word structure and sentence patterns, the classical languages have for centuries helped to train young people to be observant, accurate, analytical, and logical. They develop the mind in demanding and practical ways. Classics graduates are hired by firms that need people who can define and identify problems, think on their feet, and arrive at sound and creative solutions.

The civilisations of Greece and Rome link us with contemporary cultures around the world
A background in the classical civilisations helps to make you aware of customs, values, and ideas that we have in common with our neighbours in Eastern and Western Europe and with the cultures of North and South America. We share many concepts in government, religion, art, literature, and economic systems.

Acquaintance with ancient cultures promotes tolerance and understanding
A person who is aware of the rich and varied culture of the Greeks and Romans is more likely to accept the differing customs and values of other peoples today. In studying of ancient civilizations, you encounter exotic and extreme customs, which were not static, but evolved over the centuries. If you are familiar with diversity, change, and longevity in your own culture, you will be more inclined to respect the views, ideologies, religions and economic systems of foreign peoples, and to appreciate cultures that differ from your own.

LATIN IS FUN!

Latin lessons involve very little writing.

You only need to learn to understand written Latin; this makes progress much faster than in modern languages, where you also have to learn to write, listen and speak.

Since you do not learn to speak Latin, there is no oral examination.

There is no coursework requirement at GCSE or A level.

You will use a huge variety of resources, including video and computer packages. You will also watch some great DVDs in class!

RosaLuxembourg · 17/05/2007 14:54

I did Latin to A-level and 25 years later am planning to take an Open University course in it as part of the History degree I am doing. I think you should keep it on Tigermoth's DS - the first couple of years are the most boring so you have already done much of the hard work - the next few years will be more interesting as you are able to read more. If you are the sort of person who likes crossword puzzles and Sudoku Latin translations can be a lot of fun.
I am hoping to start a Latin club at my DDs' school next year - DD1 is keen to learn because she says she and her friends will be able to use it as a secret code - and that's not a bad idea!

tigermoth · 17/05/2007 20:11

wow, I am so impressed with the messages here. DS is about to go on the computer and I want him to read all of the this again. Clarkent that is some quote! Now I want to learn latin!

Ds has says he will continue with Latin - yay! This thread will do lots to spur him on, I hope.

right, I am off!

OP posts:
CODalmighty · 17/05/2007 20:12

i disagree wiht ehte latin hels you learn languages crap
i have learned three foreign languages iwht no latin
i think a total waste of time

CODalmighty · 17/05/2007 20:13

adn any subjetc that has to explicitly state that " it si FUN" need to be looked at VERY carefully.

moondog · 17/05/2007 20:14

latin
latin
latin
latin

Nowt else

(The thickies in my school did that civilisation crap)

cupcakes · 17/05/2007 20:15

I used to love Classical Studies. Do they study ancient history or is it all mythology?

janeite · 17/05/2007 20:31

I'd let him drop it tbh - he's being v sensible about his reasons for wanting to do so. Classics is FUN and if he's not enjoying the Latin, he will work harder in the classics. Don't want him to feel resentful, being made to do something that he doesn't want to do. Unless he has specific "A" levels planned, it really won't matter which GCSEs he does.

Don't see it as "dumbing down" at all - every GCSE is scored the same - an A in Classics will be "better" than a B in Latin.

And what a sensible young man your son sounds!

Chica · 17/05/2007 20:44

My daughter - in yr 9 - just dropped Latin. She hated it although did not do badly at all. Is taking French and Spanish and is great at them. Just felt there were more enjoyable, more relevant topics she could choose.

I did not do Latin and did not do badly academically (even if I say so myself!)

Chica · 17/05/2007 20:46

Not that I am blowing my own trumpet or anything.. or vain or anything.. or. Ok who am i kidding?!