Page 7 | Michael Gove - wrong again: Performance-related pay in schools is crap

noblegiraffe · 2018-04-05T23:29:53+00:00

In new research that will surprise no teacher ever, performance-related pay has been shown to be ineffective in schools. It doesn’t raise school standards and it doesn’t improve staff retention. We tried to tell Gove but would he listen? Can we get rid of it now? [[https://www.tes.com/news/school-news/breaking-news/performance-related-pay-ineffective-schools-study-finds]]

flowery · 09/04/2018 14:42

”My point is that unless there is some incentive to remain a classroom teacher, or at “middle” management level, people like me will get to a certain point then leave.”

But you said you didn’t leave because of the pay, and that you earn less now?! And I’m sure you are not unusual in that. Therefore paying more money isn’t going to solve the retention crisis, surely?!

You could pay me twice UPS3 and I wouldn’t be a teacher, something which has become even more solidly the case since my involvement with schools first as a parent governor then as a director. The more (still not enough) I know about the job the less I want to do it. And I suspect much of my perceived reasons for that based on my limited knowledge are very similar to the actual reasons teachers leave.

BoneyBackJefferson · 09/04/2018 14:45

BubblesBuddy

It is a joke to think that people running a multi million ££££ consultancy company have it easy when looking at PRP in comparison to teachers

Who said that it was?

Its the old adage coming to the fore here again: If you can do X, do it, if you cannot, teach. (And complain about it forever more).

All this ever does is show you up for what you are.

The actual quote is
“Those that know, do. Those that understand, teach”

MallorieArcher · 09/04/2018 15:04

Bubblesbuddy, thanks so much for posting out how little people think of teachers with that misqoute, cheers.

I took a paydrop of 15k to leave my career and retrain as a teacher. Nearly ten years later I'm still 5k off what I was on. I'm a 'good' teacher. I got pay progession every year apart from when I was doing supply.

Also I give lots of engineering career advice. Sorry about that. Curious where you think a lot of future engineers will come from if not motivated to by a teacher at some point?

MallorieArcher · 09/04/2018 15:09

Pay progression for teachers.
Do their students make some progression from September to July. Not expected, not targeted, just 'do most students understand more at the end of the year than they did at the start'

This is vastly different to ' do your class of 13/14 year olds or 15/16 year olds meet a target set from when they were 6 or 7? Or best case, from when they were 11 and pre puberty?

If you can't see the difference here then that is the problem.

prh47bridge · 09/04/2018 15:21

The actual quote is

There are two quotes. The one you give is from Aristotle. The other, from George Bernard Shaw, Maxims for Revolutionaries, is, "He who can, does. He who cannot, teaches." I suspect GBS was deliberately twisting the Aristotle quote but he does not suggest that he is quoting Aristotle or anyone else. He was being quite rude about education in the passage in question. However, this is rather getting off the point of the thread.

BoneyBackJefferson · 09/04/2018 15:26

prh47bridge

IMO its the same quote twisted, or we may as well throw in woody allen as well.

And as you state GBS was being a dick (paraphrase)

MallorieArcher · 09/04/2018 15:26

I didn't know that! Thanks GBS
It's still a really unnecessary thing to ever say to a teacher. You wouldn't say to a nurse 'ah, couldn't be a Dr then?' well, this is the equivalent.

Original poster

noblegiraffe · 09/04/2018 17:14

Oh don’t mind BubblesBuddy, it’s me they have an issue with. They always pop up on my threads talking about unprofessional ‘teachers’ but it’s just their way of sniping at me.

OP posts:

EvilTwins · 09/04/2018 17:33

You could pay me twice UPS3 and I wouldn’t be a teacher, something which has become even more solidly the case since my involvement with schools first as a parent governor then as a director. The more (still not enough) I know about the job the less I want to do it. And I suspect much of my perceived reasons for that based on my limited knowledge are very similar to the actual reasons teachers leave.

And you’re director of a MAT? Yep - this would be one of the reasons I wanted out. People at the top making decisions but having no clue what those of us in classrooms do. 🤦‍♀️

flowery · 09/04/2018 17:52

”And you’re director of a MAT? Yep - this would be one of the reasons I wanted out. People at the top making decisions but having no clue what those of us in classrooms do.“

Eh? The fact that I wouldn’t want to do your job is one of the reasons for leaving teaching? Do you think only people desperate to be teachers should be involved then? How odd.

I’m also unclear why you think I have no clue what teachers do? If I had less of an idea what you did than I do, I’d be far more inclined to want to become one! I don’t pretend to know everything but working with schools for 5 years has definitely given me more insight than the average non-teacher. Sorry if it’s still not enough for you!

flowery · 09/04/2018 17:57

Bloody thankless it is too sometimes. Hopefully the teachers at my Trust don’t view the hours of contribution I make every week quite so disparagingly. I do my best to make their job easier as far as I possibly am able, which isn’t much. But so lovely to know people like you find my decision- making so awful that it puts you off teaching. Even though you’ve never met me and know nothing about my input.

The reason I’m on this thread in the first place is because I am in a position where I have some little influence over the terms and conditions of teachers so I wanted to take the opportunity to seek views of those at the coalface, who I admire greatly.

Back I trot to Employment where I belong...

spanieleyes · 09/04/2018 18:32

I'm confused!
You say you have some influence over the terms of pay and conditions but you don't know what those conditions are!

Teachers here have told you that it is almost impossible to identify performance targets for teachers which they have any control over. If you can ask the Exec Head of your MAT how they decide which teachers receive PRP, you will be making progress into understanding WHY the majority of teachers are cynical about the process!

flowery · 09/04/2018 18:51

”You say you have some influence over the terms of pay and conditions but you don't know what those conditions are!”

I have read the Burgundy Book and STPCD many times. I wrote our pay policy. I know how many points are on the standard scale and on our scale. I understand TLR payments. I understand UPS. Where have I indicated that I don’t know what teachers t&cs are?

Do you know what, don’t answer, it doesn’t matter. As I said, I joined this thread hoping for some insight which might help me make things better in a small way for our teachers. I’m clearly not going to get anything else useful so it’s served its purpose for me.

I know and understand my job as a director and I do it well without interfering in the jobs of employed staff, and by taking advice from staff where I need to.

But any of you who wish to assume otherwise or take your frustrations out on me, and on anyone else who gives me p their time to try and make things a little better in a very challenging system, knock yourself out.

spanieleyes · 09/04/2018 19:06

I'm sorry if you feel "got at"-you are one of the few here who are defending a system most teachers disagree with so things are bound to get heated! Your MAT may have a perfect PRP system where targets are directly related to the efforts and achievements of teachers but most of us are working in systems where PRP is simply one more stick to beat staff with!

burblife · 09/04/2018 19:31

Thank you for that specific example of people who can get paid more and more indefinitely, but it stands to reason that in the vast majority of jobs, you can’t stay in them forever and keep getting increases in pay ( other than possibly inflationary increases when/if these may happen)

Yes you can't expect to keep getting pay rises for the same role. But are there many other jobs where you are expected to improve your performance and therefore Children’s attainment year on year with ever dwindling resources while the goalposts constantly move? Surely many jobs require the same level of competent performance year after year and so are paid the same year after year whereas teachers (and other professionals) are required to constantly improve?

EvilTwins · 09/04/2018 19:59

As I said, I joined this thread hoping for some insight which might help me make things better in a small way for our teachers.

Here’s a suggestion - ask them. Spend time with them. Engage them in open and honest discussion. Find out their views about PM, PRP and working conditions.

And don’t be ridiculous - of course I didn’t leave the classrp because of you, but people like you, who make decisions but (by your own admission) don’t understand the jobs of the people you make decisions about, were part of the complex reasons I have moved on. That, the fact that there was literally nowhere else for me to go in terms of career and actually that’s a bit demoralising, the fact that my final yr 13 group we’re going to be the final 6th form group at the school (budget cuts), and the fact that I had ideas that I wanted to try out of a mainstream school. Lots of reasons.

admission · 09/04/2018 20:02

Most of what you are saying burblife is the reason why things are so silly in education. Yes improving the attainment of pupils is clearly something that should be priority if there is the head room to allow that to happen with the students that you have. However every mechanism that has been postulated for improving efficiency and effectiveness will recognise that there is a law of diminishing returns. So maybe you might be able to improve attainment but as that student reaches the maximum capability of themselves they will take longer and longer to make any further progress. So there will always be a point where no further increase in attainment is realistic, just as there is a % beyond which no more pupils will be deemed to have met expected progress.
So such targets are not realistic unless there is obvious room for improvement, which does in my opinion come down to how good a teacher somebody is and whether they are able to take on board and act on CPD to improve the learning of their students

Original poster

noblegiraffe · 09/04/2018 20:10

I don’t understand how someone can write a pay policy and yet not know how it is to be implemented. Is that normal?

OP posts:

BoneyBackJefferson · 09/04/2018 20:32

flowery

you may be the best director in the world but (and you may not like it) ignoring that you are part of a MAT, you are part of the problem, by writing the pay policy you have set the specification for what teachers have to abide by to get pay rises.

You must know -as you have written the policy- what teachers have to do to get through to the next pay stage and get their cost of living pay rise.

If I wanted to be held back by corporate/business rules I would have stayed in engineering (I know at very least as much as you, Bubblesbuddy).

Frankly flowery I could give you a list of what would make my work life easier but non of it would get me a pay rise because whatever I do the alleged pupil progress is what is going to make the decision every time.

Everytimeref · 09/04/2018 20:51

Two members of staff. Both outstanding teachers. Both get excellent results. One has had moved up 2 pay scales a year for three years running. The other was told they couldn't be moved up 2 pay scales because "of lack of funds". Guess which one is male!
Surprise surprise the MAT has a gender pay gap of 34%.

jcsp · 09/04/2018 22:02

It’s just an added unnecessary complication. I had a Head who used performance management targets, and so threshold payments, as a weapon.

I worked with a colleague who quietly managed y9 options ( before they had even opted) so that she got classes full of fresh faced hardworking girls. (and so brilliant results). The rest of us got the rest in oddly composed groups. I, as HOD, took those that wanted to do my subject and the rest...... I then got into trouble for poor results.

PRP wasn’t in operation then but if it were I’d have lost out big time.

For those wondering..... a quiet word in their ears early in Y9 ‘I’m not having you in my group next year, you’d be better with Mr xxxxx’ worked wonders. They didn’t realise that I’d have sorted it fairly, they took her word as Gospel and didn’t opt. Took ages to work out what was happening.

In another school one colleague took all the less able, they had a different curriculum including a lot of work experience. Brilliant for them. They didn’t do well exam wise but benefitted from their time at school. With exam results based PRP he’d have bombed out whilst the rest of us with generally the more academically able would have been winners. Is this fair?