Tolworth Girls

[user2929]

Distance wise dds would definitely get in but what's it like? I know it had an outstanding all round ofsted. The large class sizes bother me, is it 30+ in each class? Or are there smaller classes for core subjects? Dds only have 15 in their classes at the moment. Is Tolworth setted? How many per year group?

Sorry for all the questions but would love to know.

I don't have direct experience of the school but know someone whose daughter goes there.

The school can take up to 240 girls in a year split into 8 classes of 30. I think the current yr7 may be undersubscribed so there will be less than 30 per class but I've no idea how many.

The school 'splits' each year group into 2 by using a 2 week timetable so girls will be exposed to a max of 120 students which probably makes things seem a bit smaller.

I've no idea about setting but presume they probably do something.

From what I know about schools in the area you should probably expect class sizes of at least 25+ wherever you go (assuming you're looking at the state system). Sounds like you've been pretty lucky so far!

Thank you. Interesting about the two week timetable. 240 girls is massive though There's 45 in dd1's year group and 24 in dd2's but they're in independent. We're not sure how long term that can remain though so sussing out options. A lottery win would be nice.

It sounds huge doesn't It?! If you're in the Kingston area, you can download a copy of the admissions booklet and it gives the sizes of all the schools- as in numbers per year. I think most are 150+. Also I know Rosebery in Epsom takes 240 girls.

If you do have to switch to the state system it will be a shock but from what I've heard about Tolworth the pastoral care is excellent, plus they're having major works going on to give them a new theatre, drama studios and music rooms to go with the new sixth form and canteen/science block that opened last year.

Our friend couldn't speak higher of the school.

OP, just for information the private schools are large class size / year groups too. Surbiton High is currently @ 160 in Year 8 and @ 190 in Year 7 and @ 24 in each class. Dd's are in sets for maths and the classes are a bit smaller but most other subjects are 22-24 pupils per class. My dd went from a small Prep school to Surbiton and is fine (the pastoral care is variable). Dc are always more resilient than we expect!

Surbiton is definitely not on our list. Private school and 190 in a year group/24 in a class is just not acceptable imo. My kids have 15 in a class, 45 in a year group. Just hope we can afford to keep them through to 18.

I'm not too familar on the independent schools but one of the smallest I've heard of in the area is Claremont Fan with around 80-90 pupils per year. It wouldn t necessarily be everyone's first choice though.

It's a tough decision getting secondary school right but hopefully you'll be able to make the right one

DD is in a school with an intake of that size. There are a lot of advantages to that. Even the quirkiest girls have no problem finding friends and they have 8 sets in English and Maths so most pupils can find the right level for them. Teachers at the Parents Evening had no problem talking about her in specific detail - no sense she was just a number.

I don't know the school you're looking at but I definitely wouldn't rule it out automatically because of the size.

Yes minty it's beautiful there

Don’t get too carried away worrying about year size. Even Sutton High School which is pretty small has a yearly intake of about 70 in three classes. Whilst I tend to agree that 220 or more is too many and a bit daunting, the problem with going too far the other way and having very small yearly intakes is that you can run fewer co-curricular clubs. It’s difficult for example to run hockey teams and a netball teams and whatever other sports if the yearly intake is too low as you just don’t have enough sport loving girls to have a decent sized squad, and without the depth in talent they tend to struggle to match other schools and consequently can lose a lot of matches. It’s all personal opinion, but I’d probably say that about 5 classes is fine and 3 is the minimum, and an optimum number of children per class is probably about 20-25.

Tid I largely agree with you. 8 x 30 is just ridiculous though!!

Many schools now have 12x30. Large is very usual now. Schools manage it so people don't feel anonymous, through Houses and Tutor groups and by having year groups organised vertically. Things are very different to the sizings we would have known.

And actually, the more successful independents have grown too - having 6 or 8 forms isn't that unusual in the top preforming independent secondaries - typical form sizes might be more like 20 than 24 and they will be in smaller groups for certain things like practical subjects. Small Independnet secondaries are often a concern financially and in terms of options they can offer. Larger independents can run lots of sports teams, and offer a very impressive range of co-curricular which a small school just can't emulate.

Most people going from Prep or Primary will find their new school is considerably bigger. It is fine. Focus more on the school and what it is delivering rather than the size.

I'm a teacher myself, in private. I moved from state years ago because I didn't feel I could genuinely give each child an equal 30th of my time. I love the fact that I have a very small class so know each and every child really well and can differentiate much better. I want my own children to have the same and I just know that being one of 240 kids just won't give that.

It sounds like you know exactly what you want - a small private school - so fingers crossed it will all work out for you.

Whilst I'm not a fan of big schools - certainly on paper that is, the thought of 12 classes is shocking! - I think that whilst very small schools are ideal at primary age. I'm not so sure at secondary as the teaching and opportunities are so different. The world is a big place and I'd be worried about my child being too sheltered in a small school facing a huge shock when they come out at 18.

All I would say is keep an open mind on the state schools. Go to all the open evenings and morning visits and just see what they're like. That way if you have to go down the state route you've got the best chance to make the right decision

Not necessarily small but not massive.

So far I like KGS
St George's
Claremont
CLFS

States I guess it'd be Tolworth or Coombe but we would have to move into the catchment.

What about Notre Dame out in Cobham if you are looking at St. George's Weybridge and Claremont? Notre Dame is pretty small I think. Don't know much about it though. If you are looking closer to Tolworth area, then it might be worth also looking at Sutton High School which as I mentioned is also comparatively small.

Or Sir William Perkins in Chertsey?
If you're looking at mixed private schools have you thought of any mixed state schools?

Coombe girls does have a very small catchment so you're right in that you would have to live pretty close

All the state schools I know in the area have that yearly intake of 200+ that was a definite no, unless you know of any smaller ones?

I have one dc @ CLFS and another starting. It is a lovely school: academic, very supportive, beautiful setting, good results and committed to holistic development. They pledge not to go over 21 for classes. There are 60 places @ 7 , 20@ 11 and 20@13. Until senior school (13) they are taught in form groups (which don't go above 20) for most subjects and set for maths and languages.
The fees are at the lower end and the school are committed to keeping them so.
Junior head and head are fantastic.
The good schools guide gives a good flavour.

I taught at Coombe Girls for a bit. While tutor groups had 30 girls in each class, there were fewer teaching sets. I had 34 - 36 girls in my Science classes.

That’s why my children go private.

Yes I totally get that crafty and hence I can only hope we can continue to keep them both privately through to 18.

As a parent who's Dc go to a state secondary which has 360 kids/year, I don't get this angst against large secondary's.
Both left primaries with 1 class entries, 34 and 15 respectively, and thoroughly enjoy secondary much more. More friends, can easily avoid people you dislike, great choice of sports, clubs and friendship groups.
The school keep them in same tutor groups from Yr7-11. Had Head of year and pastoral head of years too, eldest is in Yr13 and his year 7 teachers still speak to him, ask him what he is doing and remember his likes/dislikes.
His mates and he even set up their own American football team, as there was big enough demand. Every teacher we met/meet a parent's evening have instantly know both Ds and told us their individual strengths and weaknesses. Never has a teacher not know them.
Around us it's the smaller Privates that are closing or merging, and getting bigger, must be difficult to cover costs of secondary teaching with just 30-50 children/year. Still need expensive teachers, support staff and less revenue to pay for them and keep up to date with latest technology and trends.
Plus unless your child is guaranteed to access Oxbridge, and it's 1:1 teaching, most university courses are closer to big secondary's then small private schools, Ds1 university teaches in lectures of up to 120 and groups of 20-40. Great to get used to it from 11 years of age, then try at 18.

user2929
I can totally understand where you are coming from and ultimately the big Vs small school debate is a personal choice. There are pros and cons and from the sounds of it you feel small is best for your DDs.
I too teach at a private school (previously was at state and see the huge difference in all sorts of ways) and would find it hard for DC to go to state knowing their personalities would mean they'd do far better in a small private.

Have you thought of trying to get a job at one of the schools you would be happy to send your DC too? You can then get a staff discount (this can be up to 50%, sometimes more). If you are a prep teacher then places like Claremont, Notre Dame, St G are all great as they are all-through.

Otherwise, for other state choices in the area (including areas you could move to nearby) what about:
Cobham Free School (small classes)
Nonsuch Girls'
Tiffin's (if you feel your DD could be right academically?)
I don't know how The Kingston Academy is doing?

user1471450935 360 children per year! That's over 2500 children at the school, assuming a 6th form. That's huge!

Of course it is density that is as important and I don't know how big the geographical site is, but that is part of the problem with the schools local to where the original poster is (at least the ones I know). They were never set up to be that big I don't think, and the geographical sites and their limitations means that expansion of numbers by definition leads to denser pupil population and a greater child per facility number, particularly with open space.

I get that larger numbers mean more chance to avoid people you don't like, and a greater range of clubs etc, but 360 I'm stunned by! I reckon the optimum range is pretty wide going from about 60 up to about 175 or something (personal opinion).

University teaching is a completely different kettle of fish and doesn't really bear comparison. There's a big difference between a lecture and a lesson, and equally you spend a lot less time with your course cohort at University.

And actually, the more successful independents have grown too - having 6 or 8 forms isn't that unusual in the top preforming independent secondaries
Yes that is true. Eton has more than 1300 boys aged 13 - 18. So about 260 per year.

In Eton, they are have a huge campus, so little overcrowding. Also, they are in houses of around 50 boys, so have excellent pastoral care.

A problem with large state schools is that they were never built for these numbers. I worked in an “outstanding” school that split all their classrooms into two. This meant there was no room to move around the classroom to see what the students were doing. It also meant split lunches and other weird accommodations.