Whitgift VS Oustanding State School

[Popchip]

ello Mumnetters,

My DS got an offer from Whitgift. My son loved the school and we were very excited. We were about to accept an offer but we just received an offer from local state school which has outstanding rating. My DS didn't pass grammar schools. This is a local state comp but with outstanding rating and has a very good reputation. Most of his primary friends will attend the school too. We thought we were not able to get a place with the state school as our place is located a bit far from the school given previous accepted furthest distance but from this year, the school started to stretch the catchment towards our side narrowing the other side because a new school has opened.
We paid deposit to Whitgift to secure a place anyway but my husband started saying that the state option is better value for money and closer to us. Whitgift commuting time is around- 45-60 min. Very long commuting but his teacher said that commuting time should be the last thing I should worry as he will get used to it quickly and worth long commuting. My husband is not convinced to pay the big fee whereas we have a good state school for free near us. My son's choice is whitgift...
My son loves sports. Academically, he has not been at the top set but quickly catching up. Passing W exam gave him a lot of confidence and he became willing to take on more challenge. I would like him to go to his 'dream' school but my husband doesn't agree. I am worried if we choose state school agreeing with my husband's opinion , we regret to have declined Whitgift later.... Is there anyone who didn't go for Whitgift and chose local state comp? Financially, we are fine to for the cost. My husband just doesn't want to spend the money when good free state school is available. He would like to save the fund for future.
Also, switching between Whitgift and state school, which way is generally easier? If we change our mind a few years later, is it relatively possible to switch to another? The state school should have healthy waiting list as it is heavily oversubscribed and very popular.

Whitgift does sound like a very good fit for your son. A state school won't match the language or sport options. Given that he's pretty average academically he would also benefit from smaller classes. Not to mention that he's so incredibly excited about going there.
I'd definitely go with W if you can comfortably afford it. If you're worried about being able to afford it in 2 or 4 years time, it could get very stressful.

spacecadet48
Hi, I'm curious about what you mentioned. I'm considering the possibility of moving my DS to the state 6th form from the indie in future, thinking more chance to get in top uni and also save the money. Moving from Whitgift was a bad decision you said, what are reasons? Is it just overall facilities wise, Whitgift was better? Or your DS is missing friends at Whitgift? Or actually, it was not good impact academic result? Just started wondering if at 6th form, moving from indie to state is not a good idea.... would you explain a bit more?

Your son has done so well to get his place at W. Congratulations to him. If you can afford the fees, I think it would be cruel to switch plans now. As for reapplying for yr9, there is no guarantee that he would be offered a place at that point, particularly in competition with boys coming from private prep schools whose job it is to get results at this stage. What happens then?

But he also said why the discussion was made before we decided to enroll for the exam. Totally understandable.

Your son does have a fair point here.

Normally I'd be totally on the side of your husband here. I have sympathy for people choosing private when the state offer genuinely has problems but I would always think people should choose state if the comprehensive is a good one. I do have sympathy with your son though - if he was led to expect that passing the exam would mean going to the school it seems a bit harsh to take it away from him now.

If the decision was between grammar vs whitgift, I think it was more difficult decision. But if state comp vs whitgift, I thought whitgift must be a winner but surprised to hear my DH didn’t agree.

Sorry but I really wish people wouldn't just assume that a grammar "must" be better than a comp. There really is no evidence to support that. I don't want to totally divert the thread but this casual assumption throughout society is really damaging and must be terribly demoralising for all those working in fantastic comps.

I am very sorry for my ignorance. I was not educated in this country and jumped to the easy assumption of grammar vs state comp vs private schools. Watching various threads, I understood people have own views on one or another and sometimes it could lead to heated discussion with no definite answer. Unfortunately, my DH and I have different views and this gives a difficult time to my DS.

Thats only a 13% chance of him taking an oriental language even just up to GCSE standard.

Not every boy will have chosen to study Mandarin or Japanese though.

*Popchip" Thanks for such a polite response - I don't want to criticize people's individual choices and I'm sure you and your husband will eventually agree on what is best for your son.

I'm afraid I personally feel very strongly about standing up for comprehensives - but I do understand why people make these assumptions when sections of society are so keen on giving out the message that private or grammar must be best.

OP, whilst I agree with your DH that your DS is likely to get the same educational outcome from both schools, (and also the same between a good comp and grammar), few London state schools have the sports facilities or opportunities. They simply don’t have the land, for one thing.

Has your DS done the journey he would take to Whitgift? I don’t mean in the car with you, I mean on the bus / train?

“Your clever ds will enjoy being in the top sets at the local comp “

Well, actually, he might not be in the top sets at the comp. Comps have very bright, Grammar ability, super selective ability kids in them, you know! But that isn’t to say he still wouldn’t get an excellent education!

OP: what is the comp in question?

Well, actually, he might not be in the top sets at the comp.

Yep, my daughter's predicted to get Grade 7/8 in GCSE English. She's in set 3 out of 8 at her comp....

You need to think carefully about your circumstances and what would be best. Money is definitely a factor and it is wrong to say that it is selling a child short to send them to a state school if private has offered. If paying fees would change your life style significantly it is not worth it - a few sacrifices are fine, but never having a holiday and not being able to put into your pension or worrying about replacing your car - these are sacrifices not worth it, when there is a good Comp available. So think carefully and bear in mind the fees are likely to increase by 5% each year and the end fees in 7 years time maybe 50% more than they are now.

And consider your son. He's not superbright, from the sound of it - he's not top set even in his primary, didn't pass the Grammars. He got a Whitgift offer without a scholarship (presumably) so I'd say that makes him reasonably bright, not superbright (please don't be offended by these comments) - chances are he wouldn't be top set in either school. Question is, what is he like? Will he sink and fall to the lowest common denominator in the Comp? Or will he be hard working and make the most of the opportunities which will undoubtedly be there for those who work hard? Whitgift are less likely to allow a reasonably bright boy to sink and chivvy him more. He might or might not need that, but it's a luxury not everyone can have.

You and your DH need to be united in your choice. Don't be sucked in by the fab Whitgift facilities - in the end, although lovely to have, much of it is window dressing and a good education can be had without the window dressing - it's only really worth it if you have pots and piots of money and won't see much sacrifice. If DH is worried about the cost, listen and don't feel choosing state is selling child short. As lots of people say, LOADS of kids do fantastically well at state schools and some do better than those in independent schools.

It does depend on the state school of course. Sadly they are not all equal. What are the results like for the school in question? What % of kids started the school as low, middle and high attainers in the DfE tables showing last year's results? What is their a progress and Attainment 8 like and how many are achieving passes and top grades?

Good luck - don't dismiss the state option, but look very carefully before committing to £150k+ which is what it will be. Don't confuse spending money with showing love.

Oh, and definitely consider the journey. An hour is a lot each way for. Child for 7 years. The school would have to be substantially better once all things were considered, to justify that. The benefits of local or short commute in terms of extra curricular involvement, homework and social stuff are huge - it's wrong to say it's not a factor to consider.

ChocolateWombat has made some very good points. I would also add that your DS can continue studying his oriental language outside of school.
I am still confused by the 6th form size so can someone explain the numbers to me. DS is at a school that offers IB & A levels and they increase the numbers at 6th form from 145 to about 195 to make sure both are viable. I don't understand why the number of boys at Whitgift for 6th form is so much lower than for GCSE. It gives a very small cohort for IB and that must limit the options.

Sometimes schools exclude certain children from their statistics. There is manipulation that goes on.
Sometimes those not taking a standard 3 A level or standard IB course might be excluded or anyone doing A Levels over 3 years.....the ones excluded, would often reduce the overall results.
If you really want to know, you can push the school on it - ask how many sat A Levels in a given year. They might tell you or not.

There can be other reasons too - lots left at the end of GCSE for other places and fewer new ones came in. The info isn't transparent.

I would definitely go for Whitgift.

Your son's choice is very important here - he is old enough to have a say and clearly loves Whitgift. Bless him for saying that he would understand if you couldn't afford it - he is obviously a lovely boy. But he really, really wants to go, and in fact you could afford it.

I do understand the idea that the money could be saved and used for him later. But is there really going to be anything in the (hypothetical, uncertain) future which he cares about this much and would be of this much benefit? He would still be able to go to the university of his choice, for example; just not with such a big financial cushion.

Whitgift is a truly great school (I am biased because my son goes there). It's especially good if the boy is sporty. It has massive resources compared with state schools - you are paying that money for a reason - and this comes out in the pupil/teacher ratio, the individual attention and nurturing, the specialised staff, the extracurricular clubs and supervised activities, etc etc. A good state school can be very good, but they just don't have the same resources (if only they did!).

I would say that education is about the journey, not just the destination. You have got the opportunity to buy your son a really great quality of life during some of his most formative years.

I would not rely on being able to switch schools in either direction at 13 - there is too much possibility that no place will be available. In particular I think it would be a cruel situation for your son if he went to the comprehensive now on the basis that he could always join Whitgift later - and then found out he couldn't.

This is not a straightforward decision. The money is a factor. The journey time is a factor. The existing friendships are a factor. But I think the biggest factor of all is your son's preference. He has fallen in love with this school and has done extremely well to get through the entrance procedures. My son was in the same position and I could not have brought myself to take that away from him.

I have little personal experience of Whitgift apart from having played them at rugby several times in my own school days. It was too far East for us to think about for our son (we could make Sutton Grammar and Wallington but Wilsons and Whitgift just too far). However, Whitgift is hardly a third tier private school!

Academically they placed 50th in the Times Parent Power league table of the best Independent schools in the country with 89.2% of A-level grades at A-B, and 85.2% of GCSEs at A/A. This would put them in the top 10 nationally of all state schools. Of course stats and league tables aren't everything, but I'd suggest that puts them well above "third tier" academically.

Sportingly Whitgift are also always a force to be reckoned with. Recently for example their U15s rugby side reached the School's Cup final, and I believe their 1stXV are unbeaten in 2018. Their 1st VII have also reached the knockout stages of the National Schools rugby 7s being played today. Just look at their twitter page twitter.com/WhitgiftSport to see the variety and quality of sport on offer there. In fact look at the school twitter page twitter.com/WhitgiftSchool1 just to see the full variety of co-curricular opportunities there are.

Everyone has their own priorities and I can't condemn anyone for being nervous or worried about the frankly huge bill sending a child (or more) to private school brings, but personally I'd sacrifice a lot of home comforts to give my child those kind of opportunities and hope that they then went on to take advantage of them.

On the educational outcome, students in indies end up with GCSEs 0.6 grade better than same ability counterparts in state schools (0.6 in the old system so maybe 1 point on the new longer scale). I’d also say that indies seem to have a lot more of a culture of going to top unis afterwards. So I’d reasonably expect an average ability child to do better at Whitgift than a comp. But it’s a case of working out if the slight likely difference in attainment + access to all the sports, oriental languages and IB is worth the 150k in fees over the next 7 years. Or whether the family would supplement education at the comp with activities and academic support outside the school and save most of the fees.

Popchip perhaps signpost your DH to this thread! Such a supportive group of mums giving you every single angle you can think of...and then some.

Good luck in your decision, let us know.

Hi, I know quite a bit about Whitgift - outing if I said how! There are good points and bad points to be made for it, but my conclusions are overall:

• resources are very, very good, even when sometimes restricted for what seem like bizarre reasons (much of the ethos dates back to the 50s, but this may change with the new Head)
• they will definitely be supported to work harder than state schools tend to do. In state schools, you have to understand what it can get you; in indies, they just make alternatives unthinkable somehow (sweeping generalisation, but based on observations from several indies)
• the exams are the exams and outcomes will vary according the child concerned. Even straight a*/1s doesn't necessarily guarantee you a glittering career. This applies everywhere. However, the thing that I believe the indies sell that they never really mention is how the kids tend to emerge firmly convinced that, if they just look at it hard enough/work on it a bit, they can solve absolutely any problem. It's that which leads to such a high proportion of them running the country and not the academic standards per se imo.

And I second everyone who said that your boy's opinion matters in this: he'll study best where he's happiest, provided he isn't going to lose out in other ways and it doesn't sound much like he will.

JoJo / Everhopeful: but surely context and cohort account for a lot. It would be interesting to compare the outcomes like for like in terms of family backgrounds. Bright kids with Well networked and supportive aspirational parents. Remember that many of kids who get good results in state comps are nevertheless living in a home with no employed adult as role model, no relatives educated to degree level etc.

You can’t presume the outcome for any individual child is consistent with the bigger data. And without context it is meaningless.

It is very touching that a lot of mums are taking time to share precious experiences of their own and giving me truly useful advice. I got a lot of eye opening ideas from here. Also, some mums even took time to gather data for me. It is helping a lot to consider from various angles reading various opinions. Thank you very much....
I called W and asked where DS was at the exam. 650 children went to the exam this year. My DS comfortably passed the exam (I was given his exam ranking) but didn't get a scholarship.

Regarding the state school in question, from my DS's primary school, 30% of children will go to grammar or indies. Almost all others will go to the state school including very bright children who passed grammar exam or waitlisted at top indies. I guess at either schools, DS will not be at a top set or a bottom set. My son was at bottom set up until around year 4 and he worked hard to catch up with others (once a week tutoring plus DH taught DS at home). He is ready to continue to work hard and I believe DS will do his best at both schools and will be happy with both schools. However, I feel it is cruel to take away the joy of going to a school of his dream after getting it... I will continue to consider both possibilities.
I am wondering what sort of 'extras' people are expecting for private education - I mean not only the actual education they offer, facilities, courses, clubs, teachers etc.? I have no experience of education by myself in this country. However, it is funny but I feel the 'extras' exist and expecting it somehow but not quite sure what they are and the value of it... Sorry for my silly question but this could be one of the factors people are willing to pay the big fees.

You need to bear in mind that you probably only have about 3 weeks to commit one way or the other, otherwise you would be liable for Autumn term's fees even if he attends state in September and another pupil takes the place. There will be plenty of extra curricular opportunities and schools tend to use their contacts through the alumni network to get visits from excellent speakers, musicians, sports coaches etc and access to otherwise more limited opportunities and resources. Some of those will incur additional cost, the school website or office should be able to give you a list of trips planned for next year and a guide of costs. Relatively few state schools offer IB if that is one of your attractions. If you do decide to go state it is possible your ds will always wonder about what he may have missed, especially if he knows others going.

I am wondering what sort of 'extras' people are expecting for private education - I mean not only the actual education they offer, facilities, courses, clubs, teachers etc.?

From Mumsnet I would guess better facilities, smaller classes, fewer disruptive children (not sure whether this is a true perception or not!) seem to be the main things that come up.

I don't think for many (most?) people of those who potentially have the choice it's necessarily a choice of either state or private in principle though but more about the individual school. Putting politics aside my daughter had the chance to go to an excellent state comprehensive. The private options would have been a very pressured highly academic indie which would have made her unhappy and what might be called a "bog standard" private which I wouldn't consider offered her anything like enough "extras" to justify the cost. So in her case it would have been an easy choice even without the politics and I really don't think she's lost anything at all. We could have afforded it if we'd been willing to give up our savings but I think she'll gain much more from (hopefully!!) starting life in her own home rather than watching her hard-earned cash disappear in rent.
Obviously other people face different choices but for us it would have been easy.

As a result of deciding to send my DS to W in September, I will have to keep working, probably forever! But I know W is the right school for him... when we received a call for the interview he was so happy - had never seen him so happy before...this is the only school he has really wanted to go to and he has earned his place so we declined a state secondary offer (heavily oversubscribed outstanding school)...he is very proud to be going to W. All the boys we met in the open mornings and other occasions were polite, smart, articulate, confident, and proud without being arrogant. Boys we saw at other schools (indies and state) were not like W boys... This was one of the key deciding factors for us.

By an odd coincidence this piece of research appeared today

www.theguardian.com/education/2018/mar/23/selective-schools-make-no-difference-to-gcse-results-study-says