Whitgift VS Oustanding State School

[Popchip]

ello Mumnetters,

My DS got an offer from Whitgift. My son loved the school and we were very excited. We were about to accept an offer but we just received an offer from local state school which has outstanding rating. My DS didn't pass grammar schools. This is a local state comp but with outstanding rating and has a very good reputation. Most of his primary friends will attend the school too. We thought we were not able to get a place with the state school as our place is located a bit far from the school given previous accepted furthest distance but from this year, the school started to stretch the catchment towards our side narrowing the other side because a new school has opened.
We paid deposit to Whitgift to secure a place anyway but my husband started saying that the state option is better value for money and closer to us. Whitgift commuting time is around- 45-60 min. Very long commuting but his teacher said that commuting time should be the last thing I should worry as he will get used to it quickly and worth long commuting. My husband is not convinced to pay the big fee whereas we have a good state school for free near us. My son's choice is whitgift...
My son loves sports. Academically, he has not been at the top set but quickly catching up. Passing W exam gave him a lot of confidence and he became willing to take on more challenge. I would like him to go to his 'dream' school but my husband doesn't agree. I am worried if we choose state school agreeing with my husband's opinion , we regret to have declined Whitgift later.... Is there anyone who didn't go for Whitgift and chose local state comp? Financially, we are fine to for the cost. My husband just doesn't want to spend the money when good free state school is available. He would like to save the fund for future.
Also, switching between Whitgift and state school, which way is generally easier? If we change our mind a few years later, is it relatively possible to switch to another? The state school should have healthy waiting list as it is heavily oversubscribed and very popular.

[mydaddy]

So what did the poster decide?

[Notenoughsleepmumof3]

Look at the results overall at GCSE for both schools and for the subjects he is most interested in. Then look at the A levels. Remember you can always change at 6th form. You won't be able to compare facilities. Whitgift has some of the most impressive grounds and facilities in South London. I was blown away by it. It's a great school and I know lots of kids there. It is also one of the most expensive. My DS had some very good scholarships there, but in the end we went with a top state school which was better academically. It's easy to be swayed by how shiny Whitgift is and it is a good school, but not perfect. Also, I hate to say it, but drugs are more of a problem in private London Schools than they are in state. It will depend on who he decides to befriend that will determine how he does at school as much as the school itself.

[Popchip]

Interesting. I work for an investment bank. As I haven't gone through a hiring process as a graduate in this country, It is a mystery for me.

[Raaaaaah]

spacecadet a teacher .

[SoupDragon]

JF were not innocent in that from what I gather. Also, W requested a mid week fixture to avoid a repeat but JF “were unable” to do this.

[TammyWhyNot]

Sorry for phone typing!

[TammyWhyNot]

LOL: imagine being appalled to achieve a career as the very teachers you are paying to ensure your career as a banker.

Spacecadet, despite his view of state scho I am sure your DS was not amongst the Whitgift students who caused the cancellation of the Whitgift v State School rugby fixture to be cancelled because they couldn’t guarantee a reversion to the previous year’s behaviour of Whitgift boys shouting ‘Chavs’ at the state school players, and taunting them with a version of Pink Floyds The Wall based on their perception of an inferior education?

Whitgift do have a reputation for....assertive.... play, amongst the other ‘Indy ‘ rugby teams

[cakeisalwaystheanswer]

And I have a DD at a very good Indy who does shove all in the way of extra-curricular. I'll have to resign myself to her becoming a teacher!

[PissedOffNeighbour]

My DD is at an outstanding state school and enjoy lots of extracurricular activities! She plays the clarinet in chamber orchestra, plays in the football team, is doing d of e, is setting off on the ski trip today and has been on a battlefields trip and has visied Malaga in the last year. Our of school she does ballet twice a week and is doing the ten toes with explorers as well as learning the piano. Extra curricular activities are not just limited to private schools you know!

[HPFA]

one of them is now flying round the world working for a top bank and the other is off doing a teachers course

Maybe the one who went on to a teacher's course actually wanted to be a teacher and not a banker?

[spacecadet48]

I will provide you with an example of our outstanding state and W. Two children achieved the same grades, one went to Leeds uni and one to Warwick..both achieving 2:1 ....one of them is now flying round the world working for a top bank and the other is off doing a teachers course. Maybe guess which one went private and which state? My issue is that results are no real indicator of success...the outstanding state did a talk at their 6th form evening and showed research where it found that state school kids who achieved better results than the private kids still didn't have he same success after uni. They couldn't work out why that was and some assumed it was because of the connections. Which is nonsense as in the main most going to private are not in the well connected group you may get in eton or westminster. My view is that private education values extra curricular sees it as key to the development of the DC. Hence the expectation for all DC to join the many clubs that are available during lunch and after school. My DD currently does lamda, hockey, netball, plays cello at school and in the orchestra, travels abroad with the school for sporting fixtures and music, she does CCF and is starting DOE. She is busy but thriving. Although I should also add that in private they have usually already learned there GCSE and A Levels courses well before the date of the exam and spend months before the exams doing practice papers and revising. My eldest DS when he moved from W to the state was appalled at the lack of extra curricular and no emphasis on sport or anything else. He also was still learning the a level course for two of his subjects two weeks before the exam.The main priority was working with those in the gifted and talented section and those getting Ds and below. As they wanted to improve there success rate. The school didn't have a 'can do attitude', my DS wanted his AS remarked and they told him he should be happy with what he has. He was told he was setting his standards too high with his uni choices and suggested he choose non RG. I could go on but with my experience I didn't want my DC going to a school where they wouldn't reach their potential or be around people who couldn't see they had any. State schools mission as with our state primary was to move up the league tables. Getting over 70% achieving A- C is all well in good but if your DC is getting Bs and Cs they won't get you into a good uni. And if 20% are getting As and A out of 200 its really not that many....anyway i went to state school as did my oh and i am not sending my DC to an environment where they are not pushed unless failing or top 10%.

[HPFA]

By an odd coincidence this piece of research appeared today

www.theguardian.com/education/2018/mar/23/selective-schools-make-no-difference-to-gcse-results-study-says

[Snowstorm18]

As a result of deciding to send my DS to W in September, I will have to keep working, probably forever! But I know W is the right school for him... when we received a call for the interview he was so happy - had never seen him so happy before...this is the only school he has really wanted to go to and he has earned his place so we declined a state secondary offer (heavily oversubscribed outstanding school)...he is very proud to be going to W. All the boys we met in the open mornings and other occasions were polite, smart, articulate, confident, and proud without being arrogant. Boys we saw at other schools (indies and state) were not like W boys... This was one of the key deciding factors for us.

[HPFA]

I am wondering what sort of 'extras' people are expecting for private education - I mean not only the actual education they offer, facilities, courses, clubs, teachers etc.?

From Mumsnet I would guess better facilities, smaller classes, fewer disruptive children (not sure whether this is a true perception or not!) seem to be the main things that come up.

I don't think for many (most?) people of those who potentially have the choice it's necessarily a choice of either state or private in principle though but more about the individual school. Putting politics aside my daughter had the chance to go to an excellent state comprehensive. The private options would have been a very pressured highly academic indie which would have made her unhappy and what might be called a "bog standard" private which I wouldn't consider offered her anything like enough "extras" to justify the cost. So in her case it would have been an easy choice even without the politics and I really don't think she's lost anything at all. We could have afforded it if we'd been willing to give up our savings but I think she'll gain much more from (hopefully!!) starting life in her own home rather than watching her hard-earned cash disappear in rent.
Obviously other people face different choices but for us it would have been easy.

[LIZS]

You need to bear in mind that you probably only have about 3 weeks to commit one way or the other, otherwise you would be liable for Autumn term's fees even if he attends state in September and another pupil takes the place. There will be plenty of extra curricular opportunities and schools tend to use their contacts through the alumni network to get visits from excellent speakers, musicians, sports coaches etc and access to otherwise more limited opportunities and resources. Some of those will incur additional cost, the school website or office should be able to give you a list of trips planned for next year and a guide of costs. Relatively few state schools offer IB if that is one of your attractions. If you do decide to go state it is possible your ds will always wonder about what he may have missed, especially if he knows others going.

[Popchip]

It is very touching that a lot of mums are taking time to share precious experiences of their own and giving me truly useful advice. I got a lot of eye opening ideas from here. Also, some mums even took time to gather data for me. It is helping a lot to consider from various angles reading various opinions. Thank you very much....
I called W and asked where DS was at the exam. 650 children went to the exam this year. My DS comfortably passed the exam (I was given his exam ranking) but didn't get a scholarship.
Regarding the state school in question, from my DS's primary school, 30% of children will go to grammar or indies. Almost all others will go to the state school including very bright children who passed grammar exam or waitlisted at top indies. I guess at either schools, DS will not be at a top set or a bottom set. My son was at bottom set up until around year 4 and he worked hard to catch up with others (once a week tutoring plus DH taught DS at home). He is ready to continue to work hard and I believe DS will do his best at both schools and will be happy with both schools. However, I feel it is cruel to take away the joy of going to a school of his dream after getting it... I will continue to consider both possibilities.
I am wondering what sort of 'extras' people are expecting for private education - I mean not only the actual education they offer, facilities, courses, clubs, teachers etc.? I have no experience of education by myself in this country. However, it is funny but I feel the 'extras' exist and expecting it somehow but not quite sure what they are and the value of it... Sorry for my silly question but this could be one of the factors people are willing to pay the big fees.

[TammyWhyNot]

JoJo / Everhopeful: but surely context and cohort account for a lot. It would be interesting to compare the outcomes like for like in terms of family backgrounds. Bright kids with Well networked and supportive aspirational parents. Remember that many of kids who get good results in state comps are nevertheless living in a home with no employed adult as role model, no relatives educated to degree level etc.

You can’t presume the outcome for any individual child is consistent with the bigger data. And without context it is meaningless.

[Everhopeful]

Hi, I know quite a bit about Whitgift - outing if I said how! There are good points and bad points to be made for it, but my conclusions are overall:

• resources are very, very good, even when sometimes restricted for what seem like bizarre reasons (much of the ethos dates back to the 50s, but this may change with the new Head)
  
• they will definitely be supported to work harder than state schools tend to do. In state schools, you have to understand what it can get you; in indies, they just make alternatives unthinkable somehow (sweeping generalisation, but based on observations from several indies)
  
• the exams are the exams and outcomes will vary according the child concerned. Even straight a*/1s doesn't necessarily guarantee you a glittering career. This applies everywhere. However, the thing that I believe the indies sell that they never really mention is how the kids tend to emerge firmly convinced that, if they just look at it hard enough/work on it a bit, they can solve absolutely any problem. It's that which leads to such a high proportion of them running the country and not the academic standards per se imo.
  

And I second everyone who said that your boy's opinion matters in this: he'll study best where he's happiest, provided he isn't going to lose out in other ways and it doesn't sound much like he will.

[IntheMotherhood]

Popchip perhaps signpost your DH to this thread! Such a supportive group of mums giving you every single angle you can think of...and then some.

Good luck in your decision, let us know.

[JoJoSM2]

On the educational outcome, students in indies end up with GCSEs 0.6 grade better than same ability counterparts in state schools (0.6 in the old system so maybe 1 point on the new longer scale). I’d also say that indies seem to have a lot more of a culture of going to top unis afterwards. So I’d reasonably expect an average ability child to do better at Whitgift than a comp. But it’s a case of working out if the slight likely difference in attainment + access to all the sports, oriental languages and IB is worth the 150k in fees over the next 7 years. Or whether the family would supplement education at the comp with activities and academic support outside the school and save most of the fees.

[Tid13]

I have little personal experience of Whitgift apart from having played them at rugby several times in my own school days. It was too far East for us to think about for our son (we could make Sutton Grammar and Wallington but Wilsons and Whitgift just too far). However, Whitgift is hardly a third tier private school!

Academically they placed 50th in the Times Parent Power league table of the best Independent schools in the country with 89.2% of A-level grades at A-B, and 85.2% of GCSEs at A/A. This would put them in the top 10 nationally of all state schools. Of course stats and league tables aren't everything, but I'd suggest that puts them well above "third tier" academically.

Sportingly Whitgift are also always a force to be reckoned with. Recently for example their U15s rugby side reached the School's Cup final, and I believe their 1stXV are unbeaten in 2018. Their 1st VII have also reached the knockout stages of the National Schools rugby 7s being played today. Just look at their twitter page twitter.com/WhitgiftSport to see the variety and quality of sport on offer there. In fact look at the school twitter page twitter.com/WhitgiftSchool1 just to see the full variety of co-curricular opportunities there are.

Everyone has their own priorities and I can't condemn anyone for being nervous or worried about the frankly huge bill sending a child (or more) to private school brings, but personally I'd sacrifice a lot of home comforts to give my child those kind of opportunities and hope that they then went on to take advantage of them.

[lallamoore]

I would definitely go for Whitgift.

Your son's choice is very important here - he is old enough to have a say and clearly loves Whitgift. Bless him for saying that he would understand if you couldn't afford it - he is obviously a lovely boy. But he really, really wants to go, and in fact you could afford it.

I do understand the idea that the money could be saved and used for him later. But is there really going to be anything in the (hypothetical, uncertain) future which he cares about this much and would be of this much benefit? He would still be able to go to the university of his choice, for example; just not with such a big financial cushion.

Whitgift is a truly great school (I am biased because my son goes there). It's especially good if the boy is sporty. It has massive resources compared with state schools - you are paying that money for a reason - and this comes out in the pupil/teacher ratio, the individual attention and nurturing, the specialised staff, the extracurricular clubs and supervised activities, etc etc. A good state school can be very good, but they just don't have the same resources (if only they did!).

I would say that education is about the journey, not just the destination. You have got the opportunity to buy your son a really great quality of life during some of his most formative years.

I would not rely on being able to switch schools in either direction at 13 - there is too much possibility that no place will be available. In particular I think it would be a cruel situation for your son if he went to the comprehensive now on the basis that he could always join Whitgift later - and then found out he couldn't.

This is not a straightforward decision. The money is a factor. The journey time is a factor. The existing friendships are a factor. But I think the biggest factor of all is your son's preference. He has fallen in love with this school and has done extremely well to get through the entrance procedures. My son was in the same position and I could not have brought myself to take that away from him.

[ChocolateWombat]

Sometimes schools exclude certain children from their statistics. There is manipulation that goes on.
Sometimes those not taking a standard 3 A level or standard IB course might be excluded or anyone doing A Levels over 3 years.....the ones excluded, would often reduce the overall results.
If you really want to know, you can push the school on it - ask how many sat A Levels in a given year. They might tell you or not.

There can be other reasons too - lots left at the end of GCSE for other places and fewer new ones came in. The info isn't transparent.

[cakeisalwaystheanswer]

ChocolateWombat has made some very good points. I would also add that your DS can continue studying his oriental language outside of school.
I am still confused by the 6th form size so can someone explain the numbers to me. DS is at a school that offers IB & A levels and they increase the numbers at 6th form from 145 to about 195 to make sure both are viable. I don't understand why the number of boys at Whitgift for 6th form is so much lower than for GCSE. It gives a very small cohort for IB and that must limit the options.

[ChocolateWombat]

Oh, and definitely consider the journey. An hour is a lot each way for. Child for 7 years. The school would have to be substantially better once all things were considered, to justify that. The benefits of local or short commute in terms of extra curricular involvement, homework and social stuff are huge - it's wrong to say it's not a factor to consider.