Decent private & no commute vs. commute to prestigious grammar

[isa2]

We are a bit stuck (even after paying a private school deposit!!!) and would love to hear any thoughts on two options we still have open for our son, who is pretty academic, but not super-dedicated to work & very outgoing and sociable. Music is no. 1 other interest, but he's a normal fairly musical boy, not a prodigy.
It's def a problem we are lucky to have, in that they are two I think vg schools. He has a good-sized academic scholarship at private St Dunstan's in lovely Catford, which is in walking distance for us, with lots of pupils in our local area. It's not traditionally highly academic, but seems to be getting more so as far as we can see. It seems like a happy, fun school with lots to do, but some people we know cast doubt on its suitability for kids on the more academic end of the spectrum (though I think they may be out of date). It's not particularly difficult for us to find the money now that we have the scholarship offer, though obviously we could think of other ways of spending it! He also has an offer from Wilson's grammar in Sutton, which is a high achieving super-selective grammar. It's 50-60 minutes commute though (but people say that boys meet up on the train, making it quite fun), and I'm not sure whether or not it has the same cheery atmosphere as St D (opinions seem to vary). Music seems fab there. Our priorities are in this order: (1) emotional well-being (2) teaching that is really interesting and engaging, especially for clever kids & (3) co-curricular, especially music, but could do with musical life that is active and fun, not necessarily fantastically high-level. No other kids to take into account. What to do, mumsnetters? Delighted if anyone with any relevant experience has time to share thoughts as we will need to relinquish one of those places!

That really is a tough choice as they are both great schools.

60 mins commute each way could be a deal breaker. Our DC commute 35 mins each way by train. It exhausted them when they were younger. But they grew into it. It does make extra curricular stuff a bit more gruelling though. An after school club that ends at 6pm means they don't get in until 7.30-8pm by the time they've got changed, got to the train station/bus stop. Then they still need to eat, do homework etc. Or they join clubs that meet at 6pm, giving no time to come home, eat etc if you live that far away, but leave DC hanging round the library and eating fast food because they don't want to miss out on orchestra practise. DS1 has this a lot. I don't regret it though. Nor does he as he adores his school.

Would having the extra money make a big difference to you? Would it enable you to save for uni fees/house deposit, have more flexibility in schooling younger DC if they don't get into a top selective grammar? Even free up cash for some fantastic holidays? That stuff matters too.

Don't think St D's is in trouble - it is where it's always been: a solid back up school to its more academic neighbours.

DD has a friend there - also on a scholarship - and she is v happy. But everyone who entered the St D's 11+ from DD's school got an offer so I don't really see any evidence that it is on the up academically. It does what it says on the tin - with advantages over a state grammar inc smaller classes and better facilities. Horses for courses - would it suit your ds better to be a big fish in a small pond or a smaller fish in a bigger pond?

pretty academic, but not super-dedicated to work I would consider your DS's personality and whether you think he'll rise to the challenge of Wilson's (which will be full of super clever and often very competitive boys). As someone has said previously, super-selectives don't necessarily bring out the best in all bright children. It partly depends on their temperament, study ethic, willingness to buckle down when required and stay competitive when faced with a brighter cohort than they may be used to.

An hour each way is relatively usual by London standards but it does rather depend on the ease of the journey. A straight through bus/coach/train journey is fine. However, if it requires several modes of transport it can easily spiral (in the wrong circumstances) into something much longer.

We live 10 mins away from our dc's school and it benefits all of us enormously. The cleverest person I've ever met went to SD, so it obviously can do well by clever students. If your ds prefers it that would be my choice

would it suit your ds better to be a big fish in a small pond or a smaller fish in a bigger pond? That is very much an issue to consider.

heslpopje do you have a DC at St D to make such a statement and to describe as 'dustbins' is just rude?

I admit that St D was always regarded as the easy option for parents who couldn't get their DC into JAGS, DC and Alleyns. However as its got tougher to get into those schools for a number of parents going private from my DC school St D was their first and for some only choice. We had parents horrified that their DC didn't get an interview as they assumed it would be a dead cert, this year with the new online test it threw a number of DC and I know of some even at top preps that didn't get an interview. The problem St D has is whether it is still seen as 2nd or 3rd choice for some. Pastoral care is fantastic, they are prompt at dealing with issues and do their utmost to support our DC. isa2 ultimately its your choice and I would go with what your sons preference is. Both are good schools..

There are always schools that sit in 3rd slot behind more illustrious neighbours. That doesn’t matter as long as there are enough brighter children to work with and the ethos is one you can live with. The school my DDs went to wouldn’t be considered top tier, but it suited them and the bigger fish situation is appealing. It does mean they get opportunities with less competition from other children and the schools actually know who they are.

Being local is an advantage. If nearly all applicants get in - so what? Many schools are not overly competitive but are still capable of offering a high quality broad education. If he really wants to fit into school life and feels the independent school suits him, then let him decide if you cannot. My DDs decided. They boarded and we narrowed down the choices but they had to be happy. Children do know where they fit in and what suits them.

Don’t worry about past perceptions. I live in an 11 plus county and the private schools take, mostly, 11 plus or Wycombe Abbey rejects. That doesn’t mean they are poor schools. They just don’t have the academic prowess of Wycombe Abbey!

Actually, in defence of St Dunstan's, if it's really the case that practically anyone can get in (or could in previous years), their proportion of GCSE A*/A is pretty impressive at just a fraction below 60% in 2017. Must be doing something right if that's really an unselected sample.

When we had a similar choice we went for the nearby Private School
Dd walks there in a Matter of minutes and if necessary I can pop down to drop things off/ for any meetings etc. She gets up at 7.30 and leave she the house at around 8.15 where’s she would have had to catch a bus at 7 after a 10 minute walk . If it was very cold and wet or she missed the bus I would have had to drag her brother out if bed or make him late for school to take her.
She also has local friends who she walks to and from school with and can meet up with at weekends and holidays - there was a gang of them here sledging last Thrursday. I wouldn’t have minded a certain amount of Mums Taxi but with another child and a DH who works long hours it would have been hard

It was autocorrect

We looked and didn't apply - it wasn't for us

I honestly thought there had been issues with staff leaving and disquiet in the last few years based on local parent chatter. Perhaps not.

Current parents of pupils at Wilsons could advise, but there was news a few years back of the boys being systematically targetted and bullied - sometimes violently - for money, shoes etc by local pupils from other schools who thought of them as privileged because they were at a grammar. That put me off. I didn't fancy tiny DS waiting at bus or tram stops in the dark alone, as no one else from our area was planning on going to the school.

their proportion of GCSE A/A is pretty impressive at just a fraction below 60% in 2017. Must be doing something right if that's really an unselected sample.*

@isa2 My friend whose DC went there said this.She thought their added value was fantastic.

Helspopje you are correct that their has been a change in staff at St D. Not unusual when you get a change in Head Master who has a lot of new ideas and a lot of energy too! He has made a number of changes for the better in his mission to improve the schools academic achievements and reputation. My DD started when he had just arrived and we have seen a lot of improvements. The teachers leaving were for the better imo and the music department is so much more organised too. I will be interested to see how my DD year get on when sitting GCSES as they will have had him as the HT for their entire time their. That will be when we will truly see if he has made an impact!

The local private if you think it is a good fit for your son and you can afford it.

No way would I want my child commuting for 10 hours a week. Think what they could do with that time! Sport, music, homework or just relaxing with friends.

If he is into sport and other activities it will be very long days with matches/practice after school and then a commute home. Nicer to be close to friends from school for the weekends too.

I also prefer the ethos of ‘added value’ schools rather than super selective schools that take the top tiny % and get all A’s. That is less impressive to me than having a slightly more mixed school and achieving good results for all.

FeedtheTree - no, I haven't heard of Wilson's boys being bullied by other school children. They have teachers at the bus stops after school anyway. I suspect that the stories you heard may have been exaggerated by people who are snobby about the school being near Croydon.

DS2 did say that he heard a girl from Wallington Girls (also a grammar school) point at the Wilson's boys and say "they go to grammar school, but they're still stupid". DS1 and his friends got shouted at at a bus stop by some men in a van. A boy from our local comp shouted at DS1 once "X school (the comp) rules". That's the extent of what they've told me.

their proportion of GCSE A/A is pretty impressive at just a fraction below 60% in 2017. Must be doing something right if that's really an unselected sample.*

The ISC reports that 62.2% of GCSE and IGCSE entries were awarded either an A*, A, 9, 8, or 7 grade in their schools. St Dunstan's are doing basically average for a sample selected for the ability to pay fees.

user149799568 You could probably say something similar about the super-selectives though, albeit with a sample selected for academic abilities rather than ability to pay fees.

ReelingLush18 Not necessarily. Some schools do better or worst by their intakes than others. I'm merely pointing out that St Dunstan's GSCE results in and of themselves don't give much indication whether they are doing well or badly. You'd need to know how their intake compares with the UK independent school average to draw any reasonable conclusions there.

I disagree with those saying it is wrong to know where you are in a class. I had to push my son’s school to tell me. It turned that the positive comments I always received were disguising the fact that he was struggling at the bottom of the year group. It turned out that he had dyslexia but no one had noticed. Had we been given the class ranking earlier we may have found this out 5 years earlier!

Dancingdreamer i agree with you. One of my DC was behind and we hadn't appreciated how far as the school had decided he was just in the bottom group as he wasn't bright. They didnt tell us he was in the bottom but turned out he had a hearing issue, needed surgery and took a few years to catch up. Also my DD at St D responds well to competition and likes to know where she is. Her maths teacher is tough and if your not maintaining the expected standards in the top group will drop you down. Not all DC will respond to that hence you have to make sure the school (if you have a choice) is a good fit

Class position tells you absolutely nothing. In a class full of very bright children, being near the bottom means little. It means you are nearer a middle attainer than a low attainer. Or that you are not a very high attainer. That’s all. In a class where many children are middle attainers, there are nuances of middle, and some children will be nearer to lower attainers but that still does not tell you why they have attained less. It tells you nothing about progress either.

Poor teaching and poor assessment is to blame for not picking up where a child is struggling. Most parents in state schools work this out when not a single child is ranked publicly. They have 30 in a class but why doesn’t a private school with small classes know if a child has problems? It’s discraceful and incompetent. They tell you your child is ok so they spend less on them and keep you on-side for fees. How do state schools manage to find out if a child could be doing better?

I can answer that actually. It is by assessing the child’s progress and setting appropriate work. It is by being accountable and knowing Ofsted are going to look at progress of pupils in forensic detail. It is then down to good teaching to make sure the child progresses as much as they can but speaking to the SendCo and parents if there is lack of progress to come up with a plan. I am aware of numerous private schools where assessment and monitoring of progress is poor or even in its infancy in terms of Policy and classroom practice. Parents pay and expect better but are, essentially, duped. Ranking a child tells you absolutely nothing. Quality first teaching is everything.

Bubblesbuddy that is ridiculous to suggest that a private school would not identify and inform you of a potential issue just to keep taking the fees.

Please engage your brain when posting your opinion

Bubbles our state primary told us that our DD had dyslexia based on her not being at the same level as some of the other DC in her class. My DD was in a work based nursery and the OC had come from the very expensive Montessori. This same teacher told us to accept our DD was sociable but not very bright. My DD was 4yrs old. Too young to complete a dyslexia assessment and i should add that my DD doesn't have dyslexia and by the time she was in yr 2 was top in her class. My DS was in a state school too and they didn't spot he wasn't hearing or understanding and had decided he was stupid. I pushed for a referral to ENT as his communication was poor, use of language was poor and would get frustrated when he was trying to have a conversation, and found out his hearing was poor. The state school hadnt picked this up and i should add we are in a lovely middle class area. So was disappointing, they are good with DC with sens or known issues but not so good if not already diagnosed. As for private i have no idea what your talking about? No one has mentioned private schools not picking up on issues. I have always had excellent communication with private schools and an open dialogue with my DC teachers and we don't get any 'surprises. As for knowing where you are in the class, i was referring to the top group maths class in my DD private secondary school. In my DS primary state once your in your group it's difficult to move out of it. The other groups get different lessons and from my experience the DC know where they sit and are not motivated or encouraged to do better to move out of the group. We all have our own experiences..

Bubbles Buddy whilst I agree with your point on importance of monitoring and assessment, I think it's a bit of a naive leap to suggest independent schools don't do this well and don't disclose info to keep parents 'on side'. I think it's daydreaming to suggest good practise here is only in domain of schools with Ofsted breathing down their back.

You're not The Infamous Anti Independent school crusader 'Guest55' on the eleven plus forum by any chance?