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Secondary education

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Original poster

Should the DfE be offering £26k bursaries to train as a Classics teacher?

458 replies

noblegiraffe · 23/01/2018 18:38

Given the recruitment and retention crisis and the school funding crisis, is it really the best use of funds to be paying £26k for teachers to train in Classics (and then presumably sod straight off to the private sector)?

Although I doubt they're expecting many takers, it does seem to display completely messed up priorities.

I'm half wondering if Toby Young has said he needs more Latin teachers for his WLFS and the DfE has, as ever, pandered to his whims.

Should the DfE be offering £26k bursaries to train as a Classics teacher?
OP posts:
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Piggywaspushed · 26/01/2018 10:53

Indeed but noble is one of the teachers on MN that I would be pleased if she taught my DCs. She is informed, articulate, highly educated and she really cares and will work through the issues she moans about to get the best for her students. That is abundantly obvious to me.

Sadly, that should describe all teachers . But it doesn't.

MumTryingHerBest · 26/01/2018 11:07

I would be pleased if she taught my DCs

+1

I'm sure she'd be a better option than the string of supply teachers my DCs have had for the last few years due to their teachers leaving mid year (one is doing 1-2-1 tutoring, one has set up a tution centre, one is working in a cake shop and one moved abroad to teach).

ArcheryAnnie · 26/01/2018 11:22

All bursaries should have a work commitment in the state sector attached to them - 5 years in my view.

Agree entirely with this.

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 26/01/2018 11:22

You can't hope to enthuse your students if you're dreary in fact dull teachers annoy me a lot because they have a very real capacity to kill subjects for their pupils

Good thing I’m not then! My top set all went on to take A-level Maths (unprecedented), my current lot are excited about the maths trip I’m organising...is there any other way you can possibly try to imply I’m crap at my job just because you don’t like my threads?

if there was an Oscar for complaining threads

I’d like to thank the Tory party, the DfE, Theresa May, Sir Graham Brady, Nick Timothy, Nick Gibb, and last but by no means least, Michael Gove.

If I want to discuss education policy, then I don’t see why I shouldn’t be able to do so in the education sections. It’s not like my threads get no responses.

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Original poster
noblegiraffe · 26/01/2018 11:29

Thanks piggy and mum Smile

I agree that the bursary should be dependent on state teaching, I don’t understand why it isn’t. I think I got my golden hello at the end of my NQT year. Admin costs?

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LooseAtTheSeams · 26/01/2018 11:50

I love Noble's threads -always thought-provoking and stimulating. Definitely not moaning! Great titles, too. I am not at all surprised all your set 1 carried on to A level, Noble!
DS1's maths teacher is very experienced and brilliant and he's going to do A level maths, so I'm not going to swap her but you can have DS2 anytime!Grin

goodbyestranger · 26/01/2018 11:51

noble you're obviously completely free to complain about any educational matter you like on here, but Piggy inferred that the threads were mainly for complaining classroom teachers and they're not, they're open to anyone who cares to contribute, even if they have more positive views of the changes.

I didn't miss your point Goldrill. I responded to you linking my comment about enthusiasm with fluffy bunnies, when I had cast no such imputation (not that I don't like fluffy bunnies, I have several cute wild fbs in my garden, but I agree that they wouldn't be effective in a classroom setting).

MumTryingHerBest · 26/01/2018 12:04

they wouldn't be effective in a classroom setting

Sadly some of the supply teachers my DCs have had have not been very effective in a classroom setting. One of them was sacked after 6 weeks.

LooseAtTheSeams · 26/01/2018 13:34

Supply teaching is a murky business. I nearly did it - luckily managed to get enough hours at my own college - but the agency would have sent me anywhere to cover anything if I'd been up for it. DS1 warned me off it!

SuperPug · 26/01/2018 13:51

Agree with the independent sector element. I'm aware it is taught in some local grammar schools and academies.
Much easier for them on the PGCE. In my year, they did their placements in some of the best independent schools in the country.

Piggywaspushed · 26/01/2018 14:04

Sorry good bye at the risk of prolonging the argument, you mentioned moaning teachers before I did and started having a pop at noble long before I defended her.

I have locked horns with noble and others over many issues but I don't think that is moaning. In fact, that reminds me of my own SLT who think any valid point/ criticism/ suggestion is 'moaning'.

Namechange16 · 26/01/2018 14:21

What I find hilarious is that PGCE students are training on 26k and then in the NQT year they will drop right down to 21k outside of London. Cash strapped schools are going to put the them on M1 in the NQT year so there won't be any matched salary to the training year. They won't train on 26k and then be told "oh you can go up to M3 straight away"... it's not going to happen. It's crazy!!

And don't get me started on how much easier the university PGCE students have it in comparison to Teach First teachers who teach an almost full time table straight away along with all the essays and the university meetings and CPD meetings . But they only earn £17000ish in their first year. Madness!

HandbagKrabby · 26/01/2018 14:33

Classics is lovely but we need all children to have good English and maths teachers first, and this should be prioritised by any bursary set up. If education was funded properly, there would be nothing to see here anyway.

LooseAtTheSeams · 26/01/2018 14:47

Piggy totally agree about the discussions - I find the debates very interesting and I've learned a lot. This one for example - I really loved classics at school and think the option to do it is great (as an option) but I wouldn't offer a larger bursary for classics than for core subjects and didn't dream that was even happening.

goodbyestranger · 26/01/2018 15:30

The discussions would have been vastly improved if the teachers collectively had been rather more open minded and prepared to engage with opposing arguments rather than dig their heels in and adopt the approach that teacher knows best, end of. On the whole the threads displayed a posse of people with very closed minds - a slightly worrying trait in teachers responsible for expanding young minds.

Piggywaspushed · 26/01/2018 15:38

Which discussions do you mean ?

To be fair, we tend to be discussing faits accomplis. Our views are not often sought and far less heeded.

Do we not think teacher/ doctor/ nurse/ dentist / insert other professional does know best then?

Piggywaspushed · 26/01/2018 15:40

Also, this is debate (plenty have disagree with Noble) - ergo, opening minds. noble is very useful as she brings to light otherwise buried news. No one ever discusses stuff like this at my workplace so I find it refreshing.

Piggywaspushed · 26/01/2018 15:41
BlindLemonAlley · 26/01/2018 18:08

Classics is lovely but we need all children to have good English and maths teachers first, and this should be prioritised by any bursary set up.

^
This

Julie8008 · 26/01/2018 18:18

Classics is lovely but we need all children to have good English and maths teachers first If that were the case then we would also need to have good Maths and English teachers before we have any, RE, Drama, DT, Art, Music ... or anything? Where do you draw the line?

Separately I wonder if we dont train some more classics teachers will we actually lose the ability as a country to ever teach classics? Is it possible we need to keep a minimum number of classics teachers in the system to keep the option alive for the future? And if so, how close are we to losing classics forever?

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 26/01/2018 19:15

we actually lose the ability as a country to ever teach classics

I dunno, maybe the private schools could train them and foot the bill until the DfE has the cash to throw at classics again?

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Original poster
noblegiraffe · 26/01/2018 19:26

The discussions would have been vastly improved if the teachers collectively had been rather more open minded

Yeah teachers, you need to be more open-minded about ideas which are crap or insulting to your professionalism. Pretend you don't know what you're talking about, because people have had enough of experts. Gove rulez foreva.

Love to my posse x Grin (as if!)

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goodbyestranger · 26/01/2018 19:53

The new exams are good for the more able noble, not crap or insulting. Obviously the less able haven't been given as much consideration but to be honest what's been insulting for the more able in recent years is noddy type GCSEs which do absolutely nothing to stretch them. The old MFL GCSE syllabus was a shocking example of just how low we sank but these exams generally were not challenging and when you add in the option to take them as modular then there was not just room for reform but a desperate need for it. I think it's a real concern that the less able are now not properly catered for however but then I'm not a believer that one size fits all.

On your other point, not all teachers are experts or capable of formulating policy. Some are decidedly mediocre or worse. Obviously there are also plenty who are extremely impressive but lets not pretend all teachers are equal - there are wild extremes of competence and ability across the teaching profession just as there are in all professions. I strongly dislike this pervasive idea on MN that teacher always knows best. Good teachers will know that they don't always know best.

Original poster
noblegiraffe · 26/01/2018 20:14

The new exams are good for the more able noble, not crap or insulting.

Sigh. There is so much about the new exams which is crap, but hey, you don't have to teach them.

FWIW I've been slating the maths GCSE as being crap for the most able for years.

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goodbyestranger · 26/01/2018 20:52

Well you enlighten me and all other ignorant listeners with what's crap as well as not so crap about the new exams then noble, both at GCSE and A2 and even at AS if you feel so inclined. I've already referred to the issues for the less able so clearly that's not the only crap factor as far as you're concerned. Mine was hardly intended to be an exhaustive critique but since ennui has got the better of you with only my headline, perhaps compiling a list of craps and not so craps will brighten you up. I'd genuinely like to know the substance of your views, and I'm sure you're easily capable of explaining in such a way as to justify them and convince us stupid people who know not of what we speak.