Should the DfE be offering £26k bursaries to train as a Classics teacher?

[noblegiraffe]

Given the recruitment and retention crisis and the school funding crisis, is it really the best use of funds to be paying £26k for teachers to train in Classics (and then presumably sod straight off to the private sector)?

Although I doubt they're expecting many takers, it does seem to display completely messed up priorities.

I'm half wondering if Toby Young has said he needs more Latin teachers for his WLFS and the DfE has, as ever, pandered to his whims.

Me too, but I guess we are to assume they intend to create vacancies for classicists! It's all a bit odd.

MumTryingHerBest the idea is to re-introduce Classics so they are training people for jobs that are yet to be created?

Out of interest what have they used to determine how many new Classics posts will be created in the next few years?

I'm fairly certain that you won't bother doing a quick search on those regional teacher job sites I have linked to. If you had bothered you would have seen there are rather a lot of jobs in Maths, Science, English, MFL etc. Perhaps it would be better for them to invest in those areas first, given that it is fairly evident there are quite a number of jobs to be filled in those areas now, never mind in two or three years time.

You're so unnecessarily rude MumTrying HerBest fortunately I have rather better manners so I won't answer as you deserve.

I don't need to look at the silly links because you're missing the point completely.

They can't start re-introducing Classics without teachers to fill the jobs. duh.

the idea is to re-introduce Classics in more schools than offer it now, obviously.

What gives you that idea, and that it's not to replace all the Classics teachers who are retiring or quitting teaching?

And would it be a good idea anyway to try to get schools to introduce a new subject when so many are cutting provision to the subjects currently on offer like art, drama and music? That would be a totally stupid idea.

If there's not enough funds for the current curriculum then these newly trained Classics teachers won't have jobs to go to, except in the private sector.

I don't need to look at the silly links I wasn't being rude, I stated a fact which you have confirmed.

Don't know noble I just made it up blandly while I was at work one day at the DfE :)

Classics is making a comeback, or hoping to, perhaps just not in your school.

Yes you were being extremely rude MumTryingHerBest and you also, wrongly, thought you were being clever. You're correct that I'm not clicking on the silly links because they're wholly beside the point, which escaped you.

Don't know noble

Thanks for confirming.

because they're wholly beside the point

What the fact there is little evidence there is a massive shortage of Classics teachers to meet current demand?

Is this really the logic that is driving the DfE? We need Maths, English, Science. MFL teachers now, lets offer a lower incentive to them as we may need more Classics teachers in the next two or three years.

noble I didn't confirm anything of the sort I just took the piss very gently! I'm not sure what you expect me to say. It's just a thing that's happening - ask around if you have educational connections.

MumTryingHerBest sorry, your post is not intelligible, could you try to re-phrase? ('What the fact there is....'etc).

goodbyestranger - your post is not intelligible

Just like your explanation as to how the Classics bursary is determined.

It's just a thing that's happening

I’m aware of groups that are working to get Latin into more schools, I can’t see that it’s now DfE policy? Unless, as mentioned in the OP, Toby Young is struggling to recruit and asked the DfE to be a love and swing more cash his way.

I was recently offered a place on a PGCE course with a subject combination that a tutor admitted was developed because they thought a certain subject would become more popular at GCSE and it hasn't. So I don't think training teachers based on possible future jobs works.

I do think bursaries should be aimed at subjects where there is a shortage in the state sector. I'll be receiving a generous bursary in September, and I'd be happy if it came with more conditions attached- a lot of people don't seem to believe that it doesn't tie you in to say 5 years of teaching in the state sector. I'd be happy with this as a condition of the bursary, provided there were suitable outs if you became disabled and unable to teach etc. If you left state school teaching early, you could repay it alongside your student loans, for example.

Maybe bursaries should only be offered for subjects that are taught in over 50% of state schools?

goodbyestranger on the Classics bursary:

a) Since the model will be based on the bursary being sufficient, hopefully, to attract the number of Classics trainees the DFE reckons it wants, and you concede that that won't be a large number and that the payout therefore won't be large, I'm struggling to see your problem.

b) If the bursary works to attract the target number of Classics trainees it justifies the amount because it will be pitched at the minimum level thought to attract Classics graduates away from other jobs.

c) Of course it isn't hard to understand that a lower bursary would produce a lower bottom line in fact it would probably produce a nil cost bottom line because no Classics graduate would think it worth their while and they'd shoot off to be a fat cat at the Bar instead.

d) The bursary is pitched at the amount the DfE reckons is required to recruit Classics graduates. The DfE might have their calculations wrong we won't know for a while but that's the logic behind the sum settled on.

e) The idea is to re-introduce Classics in more schools than offer it now, obviously.

f) They can't start re-introducing Classics without teachers to fill the jobs.

All written with absolute clarity, as opposed to MumTryingHerBest:

What the fact there is little evidence there is a massive shortage of Classics teachers to meet current demand?

Which is patently unintelligible although a good advertisment for the need to recruit good English teachers :)

Of course it isn't hard to understand that a lower bursary would produce a lower bottom line in fact it would probably produce a nil cost bottom line because no Classics graduate would think it worth their while and they'd shoot off to be a fat cat at the Bar instead.

You have made this point before as if you think a) that is the most common route for classics graduates (it isn't : it is A route open to virtually ALL graduates if they wish and can afford to undertake law conversion courses) and b) as if other graduates also can't make this choice.

I do hope classics graduates aren't as arrogant and entitles as you imply since I am soon to be surrounded by them!

I am struggling to see that you can't see the 'divide and conquer' problem in offering classicists more money than teachers doing the same job.

I have that philosophical issue with bursaries not being the same for everyone full stop really. But at least I know there is a critical shortage of maths and physics and MFL teachers.

In fact, I just found a very interesting and up to date chart which shows that linguistics and classics are the third lowest degrees for employment stats after graduation. Presumably because there isn't much directly related for them to do with their degree.

Perhaps there is a fear that these degrees will die out, so, therefore ,t he long view is that we need to persuade classicists into the high employment sector of education, to produce more students wanting to do the degree etc etc

www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/articles/graduatesintheuklabourmarket/2017

.... aaaaand, their annual gross pay after graduation is the same as English and lower than education! So quite where your supposition that these are people commanding high salaries after graduation comes form I have no idea! Plucked out of the air?

The bursary is attractive precisely because it offers them MORE money than they might otherwise expect to achieve...

Piggywaspushed perhaps they are hoping:

a) More Classics teachers
b) Therefore more teachers
c) Therefore the recruitment drive was a success
d) X teachers leaving
e) XX teachers joining
f) Therefore no crisis or teacher shortage (provided no one looks at figures by subject area).

Piggy, in order of your posts:

I copied what I had written previously because MumTryingHerBest said the language lacked clarity, not because I think that repetition makes something so! That said, I have a very good idea of what gives at the Bar and I assure you that the Bar is not open in the real sense to just any old bloke who takes the GDL. It's super, super competitive (at least the London bar is) and a Classical training is an excellent basis to develop exactly the skills required to succeed at the Bar. All degrees are not equal. Classics to the Bar is a particularly well trodden path.

I haven't anywhere expressed a view that I think what you label a divide and conquer is ideal so I don't know why you say I can't see a problem. I do - but often the line has to be 'whatever it takes'. Philosophy is great as far as it goes but sometimes pragmatism needs to kick in.

Piggy the best Classics graduates can command very high salaries and presumable the DfE isn't after the less good ones if they're supposed to re-kindle the Classics flame. The Bar was just one example, albeit the most obvious one.

Wrong again MumTryingHerBest because you've got the numbers wrong. Any Classics recruits will barely make a dent, in the nature of things.

Also what kind of analyst wont look at the breakdown of subjects!!!!

Why do we have to assume that people with skills in learning Ancient Languages/Classics and Linguistics are any less talented and employable than History or Geography graduates and therefore these subjects are not worthwhile? Why are we prejudiced against extending knowledge and learning?

Undergraduate degrees are not all about employability otherwise every single graduate would have to do a vocationally oriented course. What happened to getting a high calibre education because people need a variety of interests and skills for the good of this country? Advocating a narrow subject range is not acceptable in schools or elsewhere. Another thread is bemoaning the lack of choice of GCSEs. We need talented people to do whatever they are talented at. Be that Classics or Chemistry!

The Classics graduates I know are fiercely clever. They have many transferable skills, just like any other arts grad. If they are perceived as less employable, maybe that's more to do with public/employer perception rather than their lack of transferrable skills?

I think the Bar is interesting because it is one area of emloyment that takes the very best and the sharpest minds. It is not prejudiced against Classics grads as other areas of employment appear to be.

I agree with you Bubbles : it may not seem it but I do! I feel goodbye is repeatedly suggesting that classics graduates are superior to others : and they aren't (necessarily, other than that Classics predominates at RG unis, so they will by their nature be able)

I work in a school which offers classics. What I don't like is precisely what you say : that one subject appears by default to be ranked above other art subjects, to the possible recruiting detriment of other arts subjects. (I have long accepted that science is 'worth more')

One point worth clearing up is that the bursary is not the same as a salary.

Of that bursary, £9000 has to be given towards the university fees. Then there are books, and travel and very high rents in the places where training is offered.

Some people able to teach Latin/Greek will also have been on a 4 year University course and already have high debts.

Then over the course of the year the student will be working full time apart from the training hours at the university - so working hard just as a qualified teacher would.

Then, at the school, the student may be teaching more than latin. I know a student who taught English too. This was all to children who were not advantaged, for whom many of them English was a second, or third language.

In this case, though not chosen for the Latin classes on the basis of their ability, the student helped them achieve 100% A - A with a majority A. The Latin they studied gave these children something special that also helped their English and their other languages, probably a boost to their confidence, and to their CVs.