Should the DfE be offering £26k bursaries to train as a Classics teacher?

[noblegiraffe]

Given the recruitment and retention crisis and the school funding crisis, is it really the best use of funds to be paying £26k for teachers to train in Classics (and then presumably sod straight off to the private sector)?

Although I doubt they're expecting many takers, it does seem to display completely messed up priorities.

I'm half wondering if Toby Young has said he needs more Latin teachers for his WLFS and the DfE has, as ever, pandered to his whims.

You asked for one Piggy! if you meant two, ask for two! (etc).

Honestly, you're like a dog with a bone - it's really so boring.

I'm an English teacher who is also a Classics graduate. I've taught Latin & will defend it ad fossam ultimam - but I think Noble has a point about at least making such a bursary a golden handcuffs deal.

Lots of schools in the state sector teach Latin. A good MFL specialist should be able to take a class to GCSE via Cambridge Latin without prior knowledge (I'm not even a Caecilius fan, really, but hey it works) - I supported a colleague in my last school doing precisely that when the Head of MFL had a long term sickness absence which was otherwise going to leave her Y11 Latin group without a teacher. He did a great job - & is now teaching Latin to GCSE ab initio, the HOD having since retired.

For me, it's moot, as I've buggered off to teach English (& Classics Club with a bit of Latin) abroad, thank you very much. One less moaner clogging up the staff room, right?

Well, I now can't find my post where I apparently only asked for one. Nor can I make any sense of why you put in the stuff about loose and mum

But you are the dog with the bone. I'd suggest you leave it alone as you really are not getting anywhere and I am not sure what it is you are trying to prove .

Anyway, since I am boring you I won't respond to any further posts from you.

Even though you REALLY don't seem bored. You seem to be having fun!

head of English in a local school. Aged 33

Yeah, one effect of the teacher shortage is people being promoted really quickly, sometimes before they're ready. It's something that's mentioned in teacher recruitment adverts as if it's a good thing, when really it's not. Teachers who don't have sufficient experience being promoted because there's no one else, teachers seeking promotion even though they're not ready for it, because it's the only way to get a reasonable pay rise.

I genuinely hope noble , who takes her job so seriously, is not hurt.

Meh, it's like being told by a bottom set Y9 that your lesson is boring. Easily brushed off because you don't actually rate their opinion.

It is econmically utterly ridiculous to fund a subject that only a tiny minority of state schools teach, then have no requirement for them to actually teach in the state sector.

Imo these training bursaries do not work - golden handcuffs might be better. I work in a training school and taught subject knowledge last year to trainees who were earning more than me (admittedly I am part time 😆) but we had 1 who quit and still got the full amount....

I can't get over them being funded the same as a science trainee. Science is compulsory, FFS, so if they don't get the trainees, people still have to be found to do the job. Not so much with Classics.

I definitely didn't say noble was moaning!
Sadly, the reasons behind the classics bursary remain a mystery but I do have a question - does anyone know who actually decides the bursary amounts and for which subjects and how they decide?

Piggy no response required but in answer to your own queries:

a) my one example was in response to your post today @ 10:52:17
b) my post to Mum was in response to hers of 10:54:49
c) my post to Loose was in response to hers of 11:57:02

Incidentally I'm out to 'prove' nothing. MN is merely a discussion site and not something to get too exercised about. That said, no teacher with deeply negative views would get through the interview process at any good and well led school where a frequent question in recent years has been: what do you think of the curriculum changes for MFL/ English/ History/ Maths/ Physics etc.

Revealing take on the Y9 bottom set!

Loose the DfE civil servants calculate what it's likely to take to get the uptake required and since far fewer Classics grads will take up a bursary the cost re.Classics will be tiny compared to more mainstream subjects. It's not plucked from thin air, it's a properly calculated model. There's no way the DfE is chucking more money overall at Classics than at the core subjects.

Revealing take on the Y9 bottom set!

Played for and got. Definitely never been a teacher...

You've spotted the rookie error then noble :)

Your own I mean, obviously.

I'm messing with you now, goodbye. You spent most of Friday night thinking about me, let's see if we can make it Saturday night too...

classroom bossiness
Twerp.

I managed to get through the interview process at a very, very good school largely on the basis of 'here are the ways I will manage this particular key stage & the latest ridiculous stuff proposed - which we are agreed is appalling - so as to make the agreed awfulness less awful'.

I'm currently trying to avoid a promotion (doesn't fit with my work life balance, kids etc) which is being thrust upon me.

Starting point in informal discussion with the Head is again - ok, how would you run s department around this nonsense & continue to get excellent results?

It's ok to be very very critical of current trends in education. That's not being negative.

I did classics at 6th form and know quite a few people who’ve taken it further. It’s a brilliant subject.

Interesting thread (apart from the derailment). Recognise noble from other threads, very clever and kind from what I’ve read. Helped out a poster’s DS who decided to study A Level Maths from scratch in her free time. Presumably for the love of teaching rather than because she’s miserable and wanted an additional student to moan about.

There is no way the salary and benefits of teaching could be considered good or equivalent to the private sector. I used to work in professional services. Yes, stressful, but not a patch on teaching, and after a couple of years I was being paid £38k, plus decent pension plus a whole load of other benefits. Worked with a lot of people who left to follow their ‘vocation’ to teach...nearly all came back jaded and pissed off after a couple of years. After banking the bursary of course.

People display a peculiar arrogance towards teachers. Almost as if, because they taught their own DC how to count to ten they think ah instructing children is easy and rewarding! I don’t understand it. Teaching is clearly a skill that is honed by experience. If we want fresh enthusiasm, I’m sure noble would oblige if the state paid for her to have a term off on full pay for some R&R, preferably in sunny climes

That would probably be cheaper than chucking all this money at new starters who won’t go the distance!

Yes, I was looking at the table for the bursaries again and thinking about how you actually retain these teachers. If there are no strings attached, we still have the problem that graduates will take the bursary and decide that it's too much stress for too little money. But if they were tied into 5 years would they even start? Particularly if the risk is that after qualifying they'd earn less than the bursary for a while?

To be honest, any school that calls an analytical, critical, problem solving teacher, who reads and keeps up with educational developments moaning or negative is a red flag to me. This endless search for colleagues who will only be unfailingly 'positive' about everything often leads to mediocre middle leadership and lack of challenge. I want a leader who is able to see that things could -and bloody well should- be better, and who has the intellectual capacity to ask the difficult questions. Only then , do I think they will understand fully the stresses on their own staff and work to help, support and protect them.

I work with some amazing colleagues but the stand out features of most new ones coming into the profession are lack of intellectual curiosity and passive acceptance of change.

ps no intention to offend any new colleagues (I was one once!) so please note I said most ! Not all, thankfully.

A PP implied that retention doesn't matter (as much as we say) because once past a few years, teachers become lazy, cynical whiners (I wonder why!?). This obviously was predicate don the belief the generous bursaries would somehow create a glut of new teachers to replace said dead wood.

I’m sure noble would oblige if the state paid for her to have a term off on full pay for some R&R, preferably in sunny climes

A term time holiday! Oh how we dream of such things. There was some mumbling recently about offering teachers paid sabbaticals, but that was for research not for holidays.

Student loan forgiveness over ten years might help with retention, I think they are trialling that with MFL in some areas.

The problem with throwing money at the retention issue is that when teachers quit teaching, they usually go on to lesser-paid roles. Clearly money isn’t a great motivator in teachers staying.

I actually got the student loan forgiveness over 10 years - the year I started had this as a recruitment incentive as well as golden handcuffs. Kept me going 😆