Should the DfE be offering £26k bursaries to train as a Classics teacher?

[noblegiraffe]

Given the recruitment and retention crisis and the school funding crisis, is it really the best use of funds to be paying £26k for teachers to train in Classics (and then presumably sod straight off to the private sector)?

Although I doubt they're expecting many takers, it does seem to display completely messed up priorities.

I'm half wondering if Toby Young has said he needs more Latin teachers for his WLFS and the DfE has, as ever, pandered to his whims.

I told you, goodbye, you don't need to trawl through long threads. Each of those links is a link to a post on a thread (I'm the OP, so except for the first link which links to a post in a thread, it's the first post on the thread) which discusses exactly what you are asking. If you'd actually bothered to click any of the links, you would have seen that.

So click on the links, read the one post from each, then come back to me.

Don't keep banging on about how I 'haven't got a decent answer' when actually you are completely ignoring the answer that I've given. It just makes you look like a complete tit.

Mum that was one of my links! Let's see if she'll read it for you when she won't read it for me!

My DD1-18 decided in Year 3 that she wanted to study Latin and took the 11+ to attend the state grammar school as none of our local comps offered it but the grammar did. Turned out she loved it and is now doing Classics at uni. I think a lot of young people would enjoy it if only they had the opportunity.

D&T may not be required for Engineering but for a young person with an interest in that field it's a bonus to be able to study it at GCSE/A level. I was impressed by the teaching and specifications when my son did both. In fact he trained as an architect - D&T not required, but he chose it at A level rather than Art; it most definitely gave him an edge and he now runs a very successful practice. Everyone should have an opportunity to do D&T. Latin - nice, but not necessary.

ByTheSea Its good that she enjoyed Latin. However, without Maths and English GCSE, would your DD have gone on to study Classics at Uni and could thay have gone on to study Classics without Latin?

Thanks born and loose btw for your comments.

Piggy English was £9k last year, and only for those with a 2:1 or above. It wasn't considered a priority because it was thought that there wasn't a severe shortage of English teachers. It went up to £15k this year when they actually realised there was a problem in English too.

There's an issue with training bursaries in that they are applied nationally according to general shortage, but supply varies according to location and school. Some places have a glut of teachers applying and others can't get them at all.

There is an uplift to the 3 and 5 year payments for maths of £7.5k in selected areas (mainly the north and coastal towns I think).

MumTryingHerBest DD also got good GCSEs in Maths and English and A Levels in English Lit, ClassCiv and Latin. Her school did not offer Greek. I don't think she could have accessed this course without having already studied an ancient language and that is why I think it should be offered in State schools. Almost all her fellow students now were privately educated and Tories, quite the opposite of her. I personally think the study of Classics benefits students in many ways and would help in all the other subjects.

I did Latin O level and it didn't help me one bit in other subjects, it was an annoying distraction.
However it has enhanced my later life somewhat, to the point that I occasionally contemplate reading Caesar in the original again now that my knowledge of military history has improved and I understand why they were forever defending ditches. (My teenage vision of the Gallic wars were skirmishes over soggy farmland because my Latin teacher was a bit vague as to what was going on. She also couldn't tell me if the Romans had taps, I thought they must have had them to control the flow of water from the aqueducts. She was cross with me for asking.)

Ah I see noble - no I didn't click on the links because it wasn't at all clear that you only intended me to read one post from each and I certainly cba to trawl through that number of threads. Thanks for explaining - I've now clicked.

1. You complain of insufficient time to get used to the new syllabus - fair point and widely shared. It was done badly.

1. You complain about the lack of clarity over grade boundaries. Not too excited about that one myself despite having a Y11 DC myself. Other recent changes such as the introduction of the A* at A2 and the recent reforms with the A2 going linear haven't caused a meltdown among students (I also DC in both of those guinea pig years, it wasn't a problem).

1. You complain of too many papers. But plenty of schools have taken GCSEs as linear, always. I agree this is less good for the less able as I said above.

1. You complain, as I do, that the standard required by the new papers is unfair on the less able. That's a big thing the government need to sort.

So really it comes down to the introduction being on the hurried side, uncertainty over grade boundaries (par for the course with any reforms) and the reforms ignoring the needs of the less able.

1 in 10 teachers responding to a survey said that art, music or drama had been dropped by their school due to funding cuts. 1 in 5 said they had been given reduced timetable space.

www.thestage.co.uk/news/2017/teacher-survey-10-claim-arts-education-casualty-funding-cuts/

Obviously this is only a survey, but exam entries have also dropped for those subjects suggesting that there is a real issue.

I said upthread that the posts I linked to would suffice, goodbye. Had you been drinking?

Your list is incomplete and lacking in understanding. But you've been such an arse I can't see why I should help you any further.

That's exceptionally rude and quite a low place to sink to noble and the answer is emphatically no. What an extraordinary thing to say.

No, my precis is perfectly adequate if you strip out the chaff. And I understand completely - I'm obliged to - I just think you're making a lot of drama about all aspects of the reforms other than the very serious deficiencies for the less able. But I'd already made that point.

I also don't think I need your help! By contast I think you could take a leaf out of the books of the calmer teachers many of whom have embraced the changes in a positive way (once they got their heads round what they were doing) and are doing a fantastic job.

I think we should leave it there.

Saying the links would suffice just sounded schoolmarmy to me - it implied nothing about how much of the threads I'd have to read.

it implied nothing about how much of the threads I'd have to read.

FFS, I'm pretty sure you could have figured that out yourself had you bothered to click on any of the links.

If you did bother to click on any of the links, why did you then feel the need to read the entire thread in order to get the gist of the issue?

That's exceptionally rude and quite a low place to sink to noble

It was Friday night, lots of people drink on a Friday night. And you have spent a long time on this thread making out I'm crap at my job, that my threads are crap, that I can't answer a question that I'd already answered, so you talking about being exceptionally rude is quite astonishing hypocrisy.

You quite severely lack in understanding of the issues I've laid out, that's fine, you're not a teacher or an educationalist so it's not really your area. But there is a definite Dunning-Kruger effect going on in your case.

Those PPs talking about grammar schools : you do know they are a tiny tiny proportion of schools in tiny pockets of the country?

And I would imagine nearly all available classics teachers are in them and in the private sector so,, no, still not seeing the need to throw £26000 at trainees. I would like to know the thinking, though!

But noble is a schoolmarm !

I'm going out now but Mum I didn't click on the threads because I assumed they were links to whole threads and I was doing something rather more diverting at the time.

noble I have never said you are crap at your job. How daft! How would I know? I said you seem to be very negative. Others have said the same and it's based purely on the large number of threads you've created, all of which are downbeat. It's an absolutely fair point based on that evidence alone.

You don't know whether I teach, or have taught, or anything whatsoever about what I do or don't do.

Dunning-Kruger is frequently cited but with unintentional irony.

I'd be willing to bet that lots of the PPs on here who that think classics is vital or fulfilling (and let's be clear I am not anti classics : it's great) think my subject (film) is a frippery and a waste of time...

I am not sure the recruits who sign up to train as classics teachers will be teaching classics after a few years : I imagine they will be ,possibly unhappily, filling in holes in RS / history/ English/ whatever they have an A level in departments. Certainly in state comprehensives. either that or working very part time.

Even if it was "only" the introduction being hurried, grade boundaries unclear and the needs of the less able being met, that's a pretty damning indictment and reflects very badly on the instigators of the policy.
noble IS a schoolteacher, what's she supposed to sound like?

I have never said you are crap at your job

How disingenuous.

I think actually this thread has become e anoble appreciation society and can't find the others who have said she is negative. Unless you are talking about her behind her back!?

You could of course link to one and I would obediently read it.

I imagine, piggy that they will head to the private sector. Possibly immediately after training when they see the deal offered by state schools.

Is there really a shortage of English teachers? When I was young there was an abundance of teachers in subjects like English and history and a shortage in STEM and foreign languages. I could only get 15k to train as a modern foreign language teacher so 26k for an ancient language seems unfair to me.