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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Original poster

So where's this years Trinity/Whitgift/Dulwich/Alleyns thread

999 replies

soooooooknowwhat · 05/01/2018 21:18

And any other schools you may wish to add... Have used threads from the previous few years as part of my research and ds sat Trinity today! I'm more of a lurker than a thread starter but decided to bite the bullet and offer a hand to hold. Good luck to all dc's sitting exams over the next few weeks! Grin

OP posts:
SoupDragon · 26/01/2018 23:03

I know a few parents in previous years who had others from both W & T, so doubt you are penalised for trying both. They are two different schools after all.

Both DSs had offers from both and they knew we had applied to both. In the case of DS2, W knew his brother was at T and they still offered him a scholarship.

MeetieVonWrinkleSqueak · 26/01/2018 23:06

Lots of people get offers from W and T: we did 2 years ago, and so did at least 3 others out of 6 at our school sitting both (state primary).

I would be amazed if the W & T admissions teams didn't talk to each other. After all, it must help them to guess how many to over offer by.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they also talk to the admissions teams at other nearby schools too - the more information they have, the better.

The last 2 years, T have had pretty much all their 10+ offers accepted, and so put on a extra class in j-bugs. Not sure how much longer they'll want to do that for, though, especially as they didn't seem to cut back on 11+ places to compensate. So I don't know whether that means they
might offer fewer places, and go to a wait list if necessary.

SoupDragon · 26/01/2018 23:07

However, in my experience it tends to happen for only 3 reasons

I would say it also happens if the boy is at the lower end of the exam passes and simply doesn’t show them what they are looking for at interview. They can’t offer to everyone who passes the exam.

soooooooonowwhat · 27/01/2018 02:35

Have been woken up by foxes!! Thankyou so much Inthe and others congratulating ds. Just wanted to wish everyone with dc interviewing for Alleyn's or Latymer Upper today good luck! Going to have a cup of cocoa now and try and go back to sleep!

orangetiger · 27/01/2018 08:24

Thank you everyone. I just remember one other reason that the interviewer at W actually told me ... it’s not just boys at bottom end but also last year they rejected the top scholar and the 5th as they didn’t like their arrogant attitude.

SoupDragon · 27/01/2018 09:02

I agree, Orangetiger. They use the interviews to weed out the boys they don’t want and I think there are many different reasons for that - attitude, over tutoring, not super at sport/music/art. They have their own idea of what they are looking for and they have lots of boys to choose from.

It’s horrible when you look at it like that but you have to believe that it’s because it isn’t the right school for your child.

orangetiger · 27/01/2018 10:04

soup agree but not so easy when it’s the only school you have applied for because it’s so Perfect in every way for your ds! If it’s not W we will all be completely 😱

Lentils · 27/01/2018 11:49

Can someone please tell me what over-tutoring looks like? What does that mean? I got a tutor for our dd and thought it was the best thing ever - one look at what she was doing in school and what was expected on the exam and I knew her school wasn't even going to cover some of the topics!

SoupDragon · 27/01/2018 12:07

All 3 of mine had tutoring for that reason and so they knew how to workout what a question was asking them.

If your child is only having tutoring because they will not have been taught something or to bring them up to speed with exam technique it’s very different to one who has hours to make them perform like a robot churning out the answers if that makes sense. I think this becomes apparent at interview. The old T head did tell me years ago that the interview process helps them spot the “raw talent”.

citykat · 27/01/2018 15:14

The coed and girls indies seem to also include a 'classroom element' to the mix too which must be aimed at weeding those who can't cope with a new topic or way of looking at things. It seems to be looked at quite carefully at some schools. The over tutored child will be able to comprehension with ease but maybe not react to someone else's view on a poem in a class discussion, or contribute to a discussion on an unfamiliar topic.

IntheMotherhood · 27/01/2018 19:16

I'm glad these interviewers know what they're doing. I think it must be pretty hard to spot an over tutored child at interview without knowing a child's actual 'at ease' personality. Even brainy kids get flustered and have mental blocks to verbal questions.

I just googled 'signs of over tutored child'...funnily enough all I got was links to how to find a tutor and how beneficial tutoring is and how it was the best investment you could make, and so on and so forth...Wink

SoupDragon · 27/01/2018 21:22

They interview hundreds of boys every single year.

soooooooonowwhat · 27/01/2018 21:28

ds's Alleyn's interview was a bit of a disaster today! Interviewer asked ds if he had been tutored (he hasn't but is at a prep) which I thought was a funny question. I hope they believed him when he said no! Did anyone else do Alleyn's today?

soooooooonowwhat · 27/01/2018 21:32

re being able to spot over-tutoring - you kind of have to hope they know what they're doing. ds can be very shifty when he is nervous - he has inherited his mum's ability to look as though he's lying whenever he's accused of anything, we have naturally guilty faces and yes, I'd say he comes across better on paper because he can structure his thoughts and not just panic as he often does face-to-face! And I have to say I know lots of highly tutored dc's who have got offers to London's academic day schools, so it does make you wonder if they do always spot the tutoring and if so in some cases do they maybe turn a blind eye if they believe the child will maintain that level of effort outside of school and ultimately bring in the good results for the school.

Tolacar · 27/01/2018 21:40

My DS was also asked that question at Hampton soooooooonowwhat.....it's slightly annoying as my DS has never been tutored! there has been some odd questions.....how many interviews have you had so far was one as well!!!?! I understand that they are trying to figure out the overtutored but it's very sneaky! At one school, I heard the interviewer asking my DS on the way back down the corridor ask him if he had been tutored! It's sad when your DS is just being himself. And as you say, there are definitely kids that are highly tutored that do get offered places....so it's clearly not foolproof!

Lentils · 27/01/2018 21:53

Mine had hers. She was asked this too - which I think is absolute crap of them. If you are coming from the state sector you simply don't get taught about 20-25% of the exam. And for those who think dc's who are bright enough should be able to intuit algebra themselves - good luck. Also, what do they consider tutoring? Is parent teaching tutoring? Or what about the extra learning packs you get as an Alleyns JS student? Friend of mine told me Alleyn's give their js kids revision packs for the entrance exam and talk to parents about how they think the dc will perform etc. The tutor question is fairly standard there I think - my older dd got asked that as well.

Lentils · 27/01/2018 21:54

And I know from my older dd that plenty of kids at Alleyn's STILL GET TUTORED.

soooooooonowwhat · 27/01/2018 22:02

Tolacar agree it's really annoying and threw ds a bit, especially as they asked where else he's applying and what his first choice is. I think it's quite wrong of them to put the kids in a position where many of them have to lie or forget about it really as it's a rare family that only applies for one school in London and my ds honestly doesn't have an absolute first choice yet as he oscillates! It made me think they thought ds didn't come across as clever in real life as he did on paper.

Lentils I agree it's really unfair to not expect state school kids to be tutored for these assessments. I say this as a prep school parent as I know they start really gearing up for the 11+ at the start of year 5 at our prep, so it's not really possible for state school dc's to compete without the extra tutoring, it's just a fact of life.

IntheMotherhood · 27/01/2018 22:24

Such a range of reasons for getting a tutor and I wouldn't judge anyone on what they thought was right for their child. We haven't done so to date - DS at a prep - but there may be a time leading up to A Levels where he might need it and I wouldn't hesitate.

Lentils that everlasting tutor scenario has a strong whiff of co dependency about it. Surely a great tutor makes themself redundant over time?

Lentils and sooooowhat, I hope your DCs have now finished interviews and they won't feel as disastrous tomorrow as they do today.

Night night all.

Wherearemymarbles · 27/01/2018 23:22

Dont get me started on the double standards of tutoroing. I had a very frank discussion with admissions for a certain school on this. Our kids go to state primary where their only concern is ks2 sats. And thats it. The clue to a prep school is in the name. Sats are meaningless to them its all about getting pupils into kcs, dc, a, , st pauls etc etc. Kids from prep school are preped to pass the exams from year 4 pn and heads advise parents which school is within reach.

Our headmaster has no clue or even interest as to which private school our kids go to and only now in year 6 do they get any help with exam work and thats just for sats. Which are in no way comparable to say a kcs paper.

That said parents who send their kids to prep school and then tutor on top probably need to adjust their expectations at little....

Lentils · 28/01/2018 07:08

@Wherearemymarbles loads of extra tutoring goes on in prep schools - both from parents and paid tutors. I know several mums who quit high paying city jobs to shepherd and tutor their children because they did not think they were getting enough out of the prep schools. And I know from their stories that at least 2 were basically told that it was partly their fault for not being on top of things when they didn't get the results they wanted. I know of unhappy children and parents who are in amazing top London prep schools and told by schools they are not keeping up and may have to rethink 11+ choices, so have turned to tutors or are working themselves with dc to shore things up. Like you, our state primary doesn't have a clue re independents, and it's actually slightly frowned upon.

Firefox1066 · 28/01/2018 07:46

I have very strong views on the whole tutoring hypocrisy (and yes that is the correct word imo).

When parents generally talk about tutoring, there is a high-handedness that often gets my goat. Why shouldn't parents do whatever they deem best for their children's education? If that is tutoring, then so be it!

As someone who can cover the sciences, Maths and several languages, why WOULDNT I tutor my own child if he were struggling in these subjects? Moreover, why is my tutoring of my child acceptable but me paying someone else to do it unacceptable? I hear so many parents complaining about other parents using tutors and then saying "oh we just did a few papers at home together so that DC could get a good idea of what to expect".... in other words you TUTORED your child.

Lastly, the idea that once you child gets into secondary school should be the end of tutoring is rather odd imo. Why should this be so? We don't stop coaching in sports or music. Schools run all sorts of clinics and help for those who are struggling. They don't say "oh sorry but your innate ability and raw potential should be enough without any extra tuition".

Tutors have their place in the educational set up and how they are utilised will differ from child to child and situation to situation.

We should all live and let live....

Firefox1066 · 28/01/2018 07:47

As an addendum, the pints expressed here are not to anyone on this thread! Just general views on what I see and hear at the school gate!

lilybookins · 28/01/2018 07:49

Why would a kid whose been at a prep school since age 5 (or is it 3, am not au fait with these things ? ) need a tutor ?? Isn’t that what you’re paying the school to do? (Daughter from a state school) Genuinely, if I felt I had to pay for a tutor on top of six years worth of fees I’d be seriously pissed off

Lentils · 28/01/2018 08:03

@Firefox1066 - the point I was trying to make is surely at a selective school, a combination of excellent teaching and the fact that the dcs are deemed highly able should preclude EXTRA tutoring? @lilybookins - yes - it makes you wonder what you pay for! One mum said to be all you pay for is "better customer service".