DS keen on being doctor - advice welcomed!

[sydenhamhiller]

Hoping, as ever, Mumsnet can give its usual sage advice.

We are not a family of medics - DH and I are first gen of our families to go to Uni, and have Arts degrees.

DC1 is at a boys' grammar, and is a good all-rounder. He'd say his favourite subjects are PE, Latin and English in that order. He has just started doing the 3 separate sciences this school year (Y9), and quite likes them, but sadly (understandably with current teaching crisis) not the best teachers.

And to our surprise, since last year he's quite set on being a doctor. We're not quite sure where this came from - as I mentioned above, we're not a 'medic' family. The two doctors and one nurse we know have (again, understandably) a jaundiced view of the NHS. The news is full of the low morale and difficult working conditions in the NHS. We've discussed this with him.

All the posts on mumsnet/ articles elsewhere seem to say, in a nutshell, don't send your children to med school, counsel them to do something else. So should I be doing that?

When I discuss this with him - bless him, he's only 13 - he says 'well, you and dad are always going on about how difficult it is, and how hard I'll work, and how everyone hates it, I KNOW', and then I feel a bit bad for questioning his idealistic young dream.

I am also aware of being a helicopter parent. I don't think my parents even knew which 5 Unis I had on my UCAS form, or what I wrote in my personal statement! But it's such a competitive course, for so many years, such low morale on here/ the media, I just want him to make an informed decision and I am not sure how I do that. If it was 20 years ago, I'd say, "you love Latin, go and do classics somewhere", but with 3 kids, and crazy fees, I am not sure that is a luxury we can afford to promote...

Any advice lovely Secondary Education posters?

It's competitive to get in, but once you're in you have a job for life and very high earnings, as well as social respect. I'd recommend it.

I'd say 'that's a nice idea, let's see how you get on with GCSEs, you don't need to decide anything yet'. He's got a long way before even choosing A levels yet, no need for decisions right now.

We have no medics in the family at all but our dc wanted to be a doctor from the age of 14 and is now halfway through medical school. So I wouldn't discourage as it's hard work to get on a course and to see it through once you're there. They have to want to do it themselves. There are enough obstacles so no discouragement required!

I came from non medical family, and 'knew' I wanted to be a doctor from very young age.
Even with the considerable pressure and increasing denigrating of the profession I would still recommend it.
It has given me opportunity to work all over the world, I have experienced various different 'careers' within medicine, and it has provided a good standard of living for me and my family.
It still stimulates my brain, I still get opportunities to try new things, learn new things and mostly get great job satisfaction.
Tell your ds to go for it, but I'd be asking him to consider his subject choices carefully, pe and English and Latin all interesting but he will need sciences and or maths at a level.
Check out some med schools requirements for more info on that.
Also the UK will be expanding the number of med schools significantly in next few years so while still competitive it may be easier when he gets to that point

Oh and enrichment activities are vital and it's not too early to be thinking about this. At yr9 my dd who is going to med school in this Sept was doing air cadets, county hockey, did voluntary work at local nursing home... Simple stuff like reading to elderly.
She went on to do doe, and did work experience in several hospitals and gp surgery, she also got a weekend receptionist job aged 16 at our local gp practice.
Anything that shows you are trying to expose yourself to health care system as well as charity work is helpful

"All the posts on mumsnet/ articles elsewhere seem to say, in a nutshell, don't send your children to med school, counsel them to do something else. "

I don't agree. There are a few regular and vocal MN posters who may say this. However as jellybean suggests, there is a huge variety in medical careers, plus the NHS could well be a very different animal by the time your DS comes to qualify.

It, is however, very competitive and so it is worth understanding the early hurdles you have to jump through. Different medical schools have different requirements, but life is easier with as many good grade GCSEs as possible, especially in Maths, English and Sciences. Plus the enrichment activities Jellybean suggests.

There is more information on various threads on the Higher Education board. We are a non-medical family so it was quite a learning curve. The stress of getting a place - DD did not hear till late March despite having applied the previous October, had DD wondering whether this was really what she wanted to do. She started her course in September, and is loving it, though with 30 hours a week contact time and lots (and lots) to learn, it is not an easy option.

Thanks all.

Only concern would be that he doesn’t love the sciences. A lot of potential medics struggle as they can’t master the chemistry. It’s so competetive To get in you need to enjoy and be very good at it. I wouldn’t worry too much about general extra curricular (doe, music etc) but work experience/volunteering is vital. please don’t discourage !

My own DS was also at a grammar school and from a non medic background and decided he wanted to be a doctor aged around 9 or 10. He never really wavered. I was completely happy with it, on the grounds that that's what he wanted to do, it wasn't illegal, and seemed perfectly feasible. The MN threads about the competitiveness of securing a place overstate the difficulty quite a bit I think, and I'm not extrapolating purely from my own DS but from the cohorts going through his school for the past fifteen or so years. He's in his sixth year now, still completely committed, having enjoyed his university years enormously, both pre-clinical and clinical, and sits his final exams next week. I would recommend it with almost no reservations, with the important proviso that your DS needs to understand fully what he's getting into and the sheer volume of work and lack of glamour involved, as well as the considerable rewards.

@Bellamuerte

None of those are true. Earnings nothing special for the amount of hours and study put in. I know doctors who can't afford to go to work because it doesn't cover childcare. Redundancies in many areas in the NHS and social respect plummeting.

Thanks again for additional comments. I may have miscommunicated: he is a good all-rounder (predicted level 8 for all subjects, and a 9 for Latin). He likes Chemistry the most of all the sciences, and likes all subjects, just really Loves English and Latin. But I think a large part of that is down to really charismatic enthusiastic teachers, which he has yet to encounter in the sciences 😉.

Really helpful feedback, thanks everyone.

May I disagree with Stranger.

Medical School selection criteria are a maze. Good kids with the right attitude and ability should get through but they do need to get their applications right and apply to places where they offer comparative strengths. No point applying to some schools with a weak UKCAT. No point applying to others with weak GCSEs, however good you are.

Schools who regularly send pupils to medical schools understand the process and advise appropriately. Others don't. DD, who has just completed her first term, has been surprised at how many of her peers are the first for a decade from their school to gain a place at medical school. They are equally surprised that a dozen or more each year from DDs school would expect to get a place. So yes it is competitive, but understanding the process and ensuring you meet the various criteria helps a lot.

Pre-GCSE look for volunteering opportunities, like helping coach younger kids at a sports club, or St Johns Ambulance when you are old enough. Nail those GCSEs. DD spent her summer post GCSEs volunteering in a care home, which got a substantial chunk of experience out of the way, as the next summer, with UKCAT, BMAT preparation, PS writing and University visits can get quite busy. (Mainly cleaning and kitchen work because of her age, though she was given so many extra shifts that they eventually decided to pay her.)

I’m a medic from a very non medic, working class background.
Ita definitley got its challenges, but it’s a brilliant career. I earn a good wage, and I spend my days doing something intellectually stimulating AND worthwhile, unlike many of my friends. It’s also a very privelidged job, you can work easily in many countries, and being a doctor brings a sense of co fidence and self worth like nothing else I’ve experienced.
On the flip sid, it’s hard to get in, VERY hard. I don’t think you need to discourage your boy, if he isn’t 100% keen on getting in, and willing to do anything it takes then he won’t get in, simple as. I’ve had lots of friends who’ve expressed an interest in being a doctor, but were unwilling even to do A level chemistry, or a basic voluntary work once a week. So they obviously didn’t progress and are doing various things noe.
The only thing you need to do is advise him

1. It’s very competitive

2 it’s hard work

1. He needs to do chemistry and another science/maths at a level

4 he needs to do some relevant exprerience work.

And sit back and let him decide!

Ignore the various typos and spelling mistakes..
I am a doctor, honest!!

Check to see if there's a St John Ambulance unit within travelling distance, and he can apply to be a cadet. They train once a week in the evening after school, and at a certain point go out on public events and treat real people (with adult supervision) at things like fairs, local runs, football matches, etc. It's pretty cheap, and if you have problems with either fees or uniform, etc, they can help with that.

If he likes it, sticks with it, and still hangs on to his dream of being a doctor, it'll look AMAZING on his application to university to do medicine. If he doesn't like it, then at least he will have learned something useful (both how he feels about applied medicine, and also he'll have learned some first aid) and will have met a whole load of other teens, and it's still look good on any application.

Brilliant suggestion re St Johns Ambulance cadets, thanks so much, have just whizzed an email off to them now. We had looked at doing air force/ army cadets, but clashed with rugby training, which he did not want to give up. This has the bonus of being related - didn't even know they did this!

Re 'work experience': I have read a few suggestions that volunteering at a care home would be good (and we have about 3 nearby). I just figured that as he is only just about to turn 14, they would not want him due to insurance/ liability etc, and that it would be more post GCSE age?

Your DS is only Y9 OP, there's really no need to be worrying about work experience at care homes etc. My own DS did no work experience before Y11 and only ever spent a single week in a care home. Don't put pressure on your DS to do these long term stints unless he wants to - it's really not essential. Just because so many MN DC do masses of this sort of work experience doesn't make it essential.

I've no idea whether the MN hit rate for med school offers is vastly above the norm or not, but the anxiety about the process seems disproportionate. DS's school, although a grammar, gave him no particular help with anything on the application front, and no help with the BMAT. Looking at the web sites of various medical schools gave him all the info he needed and he based his applications on that.

Approaching the process in a mellow and considered way will probably translate more readily into offers than a mad dash into securing work placements at an age where your DS probably won't be mature enough to realise the benefits. Don't worry at least until Y11 and just let your DS meander towards the medical profession, or away from it, in the intervening couple of years.

I'm a doctor. I love my job and wouldn't want to do anything different.

However... I pay more in childcare than I earn. Last month I effectively paid £300 to go to work. I.e., I earned minus £300!

I trained later in life and a lot of my junior colleagues who have never had a previous career to compare it with, already seem jaded just one year in.

We have many 'rota gaps' which mean that we routinely work a couple of hours later than we should.

I am so busy at work that I don't ever get to have a drink of water, therefore I never need the loo. I do a wee at 6.30am when I leave the house and I go again when I get home around 7pm. Sometimes I have to skip lunch or eat it on the ward (where I can smell norovirus diarrhoea).

It's not glamorous but I love it.

P.S. I'm not from a medical family either. I did joint science GSCE, A levels in Maths, English and History, BSc in Maths. Then retrained as a graduate.

He has ages to go before he has to seriously decide, but advise him to try and get as enthusiastic as he can about biology and chemistry. If he can't, it probably isn't the path for him?

Get him to seriously consider Dentistry too.

We're all different though. Chemistry isn't my favourite subject! And I would have hated dentistry but I love medicine!

As junior doc, I will be encouraging my daughter away from medicine.

I haven’t read through the pps but saw the first one mention a good wage... sometimes that this true but it’s sure as hell not for the first 2 years 😂 my cousin earns more driving a taxi, and my brother earns more as a police constable... both do not require 5 years at uni, surplus of £40k debt or (I would argue) a fraction of the stress.

Yes, a consultant earns wells above national average, but by this stage they have been training often for 10+ years, and pay extortionate GMC and indemnify fees.

I won’t go into the stress, unsafe working arrangements and the generally poor living quality.

And, if you ask me, it’s only going to get worse.

Tell your son to run while he still can 😂

Ps. From working class background, first from my school to be accepted to medicine

Medicine is an excellent career and graduates don't have to spend their lives wedded to the NHS. There is clinical work, research, teaching, policy, and entrepreneurship, etc. Few doctors become rich but the pay is good and there is always work. The career is (or can be) intellectually stimulating and a medical degree really is a passport to the world.

You are right to treat a medical school application as a campaign that requires careful planning. Some families/schools do this naturally and your DS might need to invest a little more effort to ensure that everything is in place.

Everything you need to know is available online but - if you want everything in one place then this book is a good place to start. There are a lot of applicants/medics at this forum if you or he have any specific questions going forward.