DS keen on being doctor - advice welcomed!

[sydenhamhiller]

Hoping, as ever, Mumsnet can give its usual sage advice.

We are not a family of medics - DH and I are first gen of our families to go to Uni, and have Arts degrees.

DC1 is at a boys' grammar, and is a good all-rounder. He'd say his favourite subjects are PE, Latin and English in that order. He has just started doing the 3 separate sciences this school year (Y9), and quite likes them, but sadly (understandably with current teaching crisis) not the best teachers.

And to our surprise, since last year he's quite set on being a doctor. We're not quite sure where this came from - as I mentioned above, we're not a 'medic' family. The two doctors and one nurse we know have (again, understandably) a jaundiced view of the NHS. The news is full of the low morale and difficult working conditions in the NHS. We've discussed this with him.

All the posts on mumsnet/ articles elsewhere seem to say, in a nutshell, don't send your children to med school, counsel them to do something else. So should I be doing that?

When I discuss this with him - bless him, he's only 13 - he says 'well, you and dad are always going on about how difficult it is, and how hard I'll work, and how everyone hates it, I KNOW', and then I feel a bit bad for questioning his idealistic young dream.

I am also aware of being a helicopter parent. I don't think my parents even knew which 5 Unis I had on my UCAS form, or what I wrote in my personal statement! But it's such a competitive course, for so many years, such low morale on here/ the media, I just want him to make an informed decision and I am not sure how I do that. If it was 20 years ago, I'd say, "you love Latin, go and do classics somewhere", but with 3 kids, and crazy fees, I am not sure that is a luxury we can afford to promote...

Any advice lovely Secondary Education posters?

Doctor from a poor background.

• Its difficult to get in and can be a long financially taxing 5 years at university. I graduated with £28k of student loans and I worked practically full time for a lot of my uni career.

• Once you graduate you are guaranteed a job for 2 years, but this can be anywhere in the country. Even after these two years you may need to move to another region in the country. Rotations are commonly 4/6 months long so it does mean maybe moving hospital every few months and potentially moving house. EVEN if you are married and have children.

• Post graduation things remain competitive, there is high competition to enter some specialities, applicants must have a wide and varied CV quite often using alot of their own money and time to fulfill minimal entry requirements. Example being professional exams - the MRCP (the physician postgraduate exam) is a three part exam, the first part is a 6 hour exam that costs £400 to sit. This requires a lot of study especially when working a full time job.

• Well paid - although if you actually divide down the number of hours worked the hourly wage is actually not great. Especially when you take into account the sheer amount the job infringes on personal life and demands high risk / stress decisions on a daily basis. Basically don't do it if he wants to be wealthy.

• Demanding hours. It will be standard to work 13 hour days and night shifts. 24 hour NHS etc.

• It is challenging and rewarding. I love my job because every day I learn something new and feel like I make a difference.

• There is a sense of camaraderie in the profession - I've been snowed under in A&E at 4am in the morning on my 4th nightshift in a row and a lovely nurse has brought me a massive cup of tea. Sometimes those moments are just golden.

• GMC and indemnity fees - I paid out £600 last month.

• Morale - I don't know what the future of the NHS is, but at its current state it is unsustainable. The government is underfunding us and undermining us at every opportunity and I feel it won't be long until a lovely private company comes a long and a 'deal' is made to make things much easier.

Bottom line - encourage your son to do medicine. But encourage him to practise somewhere else.

On the volunteering in care homes etc, stranger is right that not all medical schools expect much. But some do, and you never know. DD did not get a great UKCAT score and was recovering from serious illness, so decided not to take BMAT. Her shadowing and volunteering experience enabled her to apply to schools which put emphasis on the Personal statement. These sometimes suggest they want to see sustained commitment, not the odd week.

There are lots of potential selection criteria. You don't have to meet all of them. But the more boxes ticked, the more choice you have of where to apply.

Or, as the manager of the care home said. Most doctors see a lot of elderly patients so it is therefore worth finding out early whether you enjoy working with older people or not. DD, slightly to her surprise, got on well with the residents and enjoyed being part of a team. Which helped confirm that medicine was what she wanted.

Loner.. Gmc fees this yr are 320 pounds, less for first five yrs qualified. As trainee or junior in hospital you don't necessarily have to have indemnity. As a consultant doing private work or a gp yes indemnity is expensive but by then you are earning good money.
I was a junior when we regularly worked 100hrs+ a week in a 1:3 rota with no shifts, so I do sometimes raise an eyebrow over the long hours comments.
My dp works in the city.. He does regular 14 hr days and hardly ever gets time to eat... His graduates do more.

Junior doctors do work really hard but probably no better or worse than a lot of other professionals.

@theredjellybean

As trainee or junior in hospital you don't necessarily have to have indemnity.

that is categorically untrue and I'm really surprised to hear a doctor say that. I hope you don't give that advice to your juniors.

yes, you have Trust indemnity as a junior doctor. The Trust indemnity will protect the Trust, and hang the doctors involved out to dry - it is absolutely vital to have your own indemnity to protect yourself and many Trusts make it compulsory in contracts. Trust indemnity won't support you in the event of a complaint to the GMC either. It is however relatively cheap as a junior, as a consultant it is often thousands and you have to pay for it yourself (tax deductible but still a big cost). GPs indemnity is much higher - mine is 20% of my earnings and that isn't unusual.

My dp works in the city.. He does regular 14 hr days and hardly ever gets time to eat... His graduates do more

I'm guessing that he earns a lot more than you and didn't study for six years, nor does he have to deal with all the crap that comes with working for the NHS, moving posts every 6m etc

I love the job of being a GP - the actual medicine - but everything that comes with it is very wearing and getting worse.

Hiya... Thank you for that, many juniors I meet are fy1 and they don't seem to have much of a clue about extra indemnity and I do tell them that the trust absolutely will not look after them, it seems to fall on deaf ears so I thought most junior juniors don't bother.
All my consultant friends have it.
I work as gp but only on Saturdays as have a non clinical role rest of the week and I pay about 15% in indemnity.

I don't think being a doctor is an easy choice but I wonder what junior doctors think other professions are like in comparison? My dp does earn more than me now, but works incredibly long hours and carries huge responsibility, but to be fair he does say 'it's not life and death stuff'

He did study for 6yrs +.. Degree, masters, MBA, his first 10 yrs in his career he lived in 7 different countries, moved three times in one year alone, commuted to and from a European city on a weekly basis when he had two young children.

My point being is that lots of professions and professional careers do require huge effort, sacrifices and impact on your personal life.

Medicine does give back a lot of job satisfaction (at times) far more (so dp says) than banking.... I sometimes agree but do wonder when he gets his bonus how much that must compensate for poor job satisfaction ;)

I don't think other professions have it easy, but no-one else would accept getting a rota that includes nights/weekends at less than a month's notice, in no other career would it be acceptable for HR to refuse leave for your own wedding with a year's notice (happened to me) and in no other career do you have no choice in moving locations significantly every six months. And in most you'd be much better remunerated by the time you reach the equivalent of consultant in the NHS.

I hope most juniors have indemnity these days!

Well my dp had a choice on the moves.... Do it or resign /bugger your whole career.

Same goes for junior doctors...

He could have left and moved to another job presumably? a JD on a rotation has no such option. And I imagine he now earns several multiples of what a consultant earns.

I'm not saying doctors have it tougher than anyone else. But they earn relatively little for the sacrifices made and commitment.

So actually you do have a choice... Do it or resign, same goes for many professions.

I don't believe junior doctors have the monopoly on having crap working hours /rotas / short notice etc...

My best friend is a lawyer... She got leave cancelled, missed my wedding due to being expected to work when a big case was on, didn't leave the office sometimes for days

My dp has been called back from family holidays, had leave refused, cancelled etc more times than I can recall. He has missed so many important events.

My dexh who worked for foreign office ditto...

My godson ( late 20's) on graduate management training with John Lewis... Paid poorly, works weekends, evenings, all Bank Holidays, gets moved every 6 months... Choice yes...dont like next placement? OK we will release you from contract.

While supportive of juniors in general the persistent believe that no other professionals have to make same sacrifices is naive and has danger of making your peers in other professions loose sympathy.

During the strikes, it was interesting, my patients and my peers were generally wholly supportive but my godson commented that he felt the junior doctors did not have a unique case and he thought that they sounded quite whiney and a bit precious.

I disagree hiya as if my dp resigned early in his career he would have been unlikely to get another job in that profession... Now yes he could but he is equivalent to a consultant so 'fully trained'

As a junior doctor you could resign and the locum at the level you had achieved.
Similar to my dp.. If he had resigned then he would have been stuck contracting at low level

Fair enough. But I come back to my main point - he made those sacrifices to earn a huge salary, presumably many multiples of a consultant's salary. Doctors make those sacrifices to earn not a huge amount and a really relatively low hourly rate for their NHS work.

persistent believe that no other professionals have to make same sacrifices

at no point have I said that. But I still would be surprised if you could show me a career where the same sacrifices are made for the same financial remuneration at the end of the career.

I think probably retail sector but not finance no... My dp earns more than an NHS consultant but not as much as some consultants doing private work.

Actually hiya... You did say no other career gives you no choice on moving every six months, which is frankly not the case.

I am honestly very supportive of our trainers and work in an area that does and possibly will improve things but would hate young people to be put off a career in medicine only to find themselves in a different career that has very similar demands in term of time, hours worked etc... Without maybe the genuine job satisfaction and personal fulfillment being a doctor can bring.

*trainees

I do know that St Georges Tooting is a great place to train. Friend's DC is there and absolutely loving it. Really happy, supportive place and obviously hands on, as it's a hospital too.

I don’t know about med school but I do know that being keen and specific on a career is a great advantage. The amount of clever sparky teens I know that are in agony because hey dot. Know what they want to do! I was a bit like that. Having that idea is great

As a banker you have more chance of getting another job in banking if you resign due to poor conditions, than you do as getting another job as a doctor if you resign during the first few years.

It’s fair to say that we don’t have the monopoly on bad working conditions. But we do (along with other health professionals) run the very real risk of causing serious harm or death if unable to do the job to best standards due to these conditions. If the med reg calls in sick and the SHO is forced to step up- you can bet that it’s the SHO who will be punished if they make a mistake despite clearly being asked to work above their means. If one f1 in a pair calls in sick on an oncall and then the other now has 2x workload- the one remaining is now expected to keep 2x patients alive and well and will be heavily punished if unable to do so.

I just don’t personally feel that non-healthcare jobs can relate to that. You can get sacked sure, but the consequences in medicine are much worse IMO.

Loner... Absolutely and my dp always says that though he is top of his profession and still has to works incredibly long hours and travels and moves and often woken in the night etc... He doesn't make life and death decisions.

But then I don't think shifting millions around the world will ever give him the satisfaction I get when I can reassure a parent that their dc is going to be OK, or I see someone whose treatment for depression is working...

Jellybean, satisfaction is another kettle of fish- I agree.

Again, likely a cynical view from a junior doc as most of my life is spent writing discharge summaries and rewriting prescription charts haha.

Tbh I will be the first to say that I’m very cynical about the job in general (in case you couldn’t tell haha). Have strong personal feelings that it should be a post grad only course- I don’t think at 16/17 (when you are applying) that you can understand the full implications of what you are signing up for.

Loner... Don't be despondent... I remember being a HO and thinking a bloody trained monkey could do my job... Filling in blood forms, taking blood when phlebotomy trolley 'forgot' my patients, clerking and making my sho cups of tea.

And then being left to it overnight when suddenly it was OK for me to be making decisions on sick patients.... Aghhhhhhh... Spent the time either crying, bring bored or terrified out of my brain.

It gets better and it opens up so many opportunities...

I have no idea what my first term medic DD might do. There are so many different paths to travel down.

At the moment she is torn between the idea of something academic like intercalating so she can specialise in medical engineering or neurology, or something intense like emergency medicine or surgery. Her thinking will evolve.

The advantage is that as well as the vast array of specialisms there is scope to find a job just about anywhere in the country, or overseas. So if she wants to follow a Scottish crofter or Australian sheep-shearer home she can, and have a good chance of finding an good professional job locally.

There is also the mummy-track option, something few 19 year olds consider but which comes into play later. I have had school run mum friends who managed part time jobs as GPs, both NHS and Private, a hospital pathologist, working in a STD clinic, or in private practice as dermatologists. None glamorous, but better than many local jobs other p/t mums were able to find. We also used to have a GP who worked a few months then travelled a few months.

One thing I have observed recently is that doctor friends who found their area and who have worked their ways up the ranks, have found themselves in senior and satisfying positions, where they will stay till retirement. At an age when many in finance and law are looking over their shoulders, wondering when the younger generation will put them out to grass.

As a non medic who spent many years working long hours in the public sector, often for quite low pay, medicine as a career does not sound too bad.

Lots of constructive advice here, thanks so much everyone.

He's still very young and could well change his mind as my two oldest did at least a couple of times. I think you should support him in whatever he wants to do. I said the same things as you about medicine to DD1 but she's in her first year and loving it.

Medical School at Oxbridge or Imperial/UCH

I'm a consultant dr. my wife is a former dr. and is admissions at Imperial Medicine and hence I am asked a lot about getting into medicine
Oxbridge, Imperial and UCH. I cannot speak for the many other
excellent schools.

Firstly, Maths & Chem. both required - 3 &/or 4th A level grade A
(usually 4 A levels 2 x A 2 x A, 1 x A if strong suite of GCSE's ( 12A/A is typical)

Re : Physics vs Biol A level. Biology is no better than Physics because no complex human biology is taught on any A level syllabi, which is why the gear-change in complexity once at med school in Biochemistry and Physiology slightly throws some candidates in year one.

Also, many applicants are even more thrown by the ubiquitous use of Applied Maths in modern medicine and research. You cannot fudge your way if you're just average at maths.

At Oxbridge, Imperial and UCH all that stuff about sport etc is cool but it is secondary to being truly excellent at maths and all sciences and having a superb school report - and having done some reading into medicine. IE at these schools you will very likely be questioned on what you claim to be interested in. Eg: An applicant claiming to be interested in Psychiatry as a career must expect the question : what books have you read?

But - note this well - the more difficult the questions are getting at your interview, the more interested the faculty is in you.

Lastly, getting in is harder than the degree. Medicine is lots of hard work but, it's not as intellectually demanding as the Cambridge Maths Tripos

• I know because I switched from that to medicine myself!

Good luck to all med school candidates and their parents.