School being difficult about language choices for my daughter

[trefusis22]

Does anyone have experience or advice regarding how to get a school to allow your child to take the language choices we would like them to make? Ds is Italian and my daughter already studying this out of school doing gcse early. School asked and we responded about any pre gcse language choices although they don't guarantee them. We wrote in in good time and requested Spanish as good chance daughter is going to do languages going forwards and it's a good match to the Italian. School have responded saying we have no choice and she is down to do German. It's totally random and we do not get to choose!

This doesn't make sense to us and school will not meet us and say their decision is binding.

What rights do we have - is there a duty of care for the school to take our daughters future language ambitions into account?

Any experience on this / helpful info gratefully received. Thank u

You can't really compare it to science though because if you're a gifted linguist you really don't have to make much effort at all to do well, especially at lower levels. I don't think the same can be said for science!

Yes, schools should pander to the exact needs of every child. You know there is a shortage of language teachers? You know that not every language teacher is able to offer the same set of languages to the same exact level?

There is no need to be sarcastic with me. Yes I know that there is a shortage of mfl teachers. There are also shortages of other teacher especially physics which is why other science specialists are drafted in for GCSE classes leaving the one precious physics specialist to do a-level teaching.

There are schemes for biology and chemistry teachers to upskill so that they can teach physics up to a-level. Also for maths and chemistry. Are there equivalent language schemes?

If so schools should be encouraging teachers to take these courses or the government should introduce them. To provide sufficiently qualified teachers in sufficient languages. Shouting at parents that are not happy is not the answer. This government is tragically mishandling education and this apparent in the area of mfl.

When I was at school, like the majority of posters no doubt, I got the choice of languages as has every student in the schools I have taught in (but i left the UK in 2011 before the tory cut backs really kicked in).

Going back to my original point. It is important for most students to feel a connection with the language otherwise there will be no interest and they will drop it as soon as possible. This will exacerbate the situation and there will be fewer and fewer language specialists in schools.

I have Scandinavian connections. They are touted as being excellent linguists because they speak English so well. Wrong! They are the same as us. Rubbish at languages that they were made to do in school that they felt no connection with (e.g., French, Spanish, german) apart from the linguistically talented/interested few. English on the other hand surrounds them daily (tv, internet, music) and is important for many jobs. So they have an much greater engagement with it. Also it is a core subject until the age of 18. Then at university textbooks and lectures will be in English.

I maintain that interest or some connection with a country, culture or a particular language is important to student success. And up until a few years ago choice of languages was possible. Shout at the government.

When I was at school there wasn’t a choice. I don’t know of any schools where there was at KS3. It doesn’t seem to have affected uptake at all.

I’d be surprised if being able to choose your language had a huge effect on language uptake. Or at least no more than in any other subject. I suspect teachers kpwho don’t know the language and who are following a scheme is probably likely to have a bigger effect.

It’s also difficult to see how in schools who allow children to choose, no child ever has not got their first preference.

When I say “gifted” I meant students who are capable of doing a degree in it. Most young people at school do work at their languages and yes you can compare it with science. The number of children who need good teaching in languages is exactly the same as those who need good teaching in science. This idea you have hundreds of children who can just pick up a language or two is ludicrous. All children with a talent in a certain subject need to be able to develop that talent and have it taught to a level where they can access a degre in it, if they do wish. Exactly the same as we do for science. I really do think it is not acceptable for children with a talent to have their interests pushed to one side. Schools could also pool teachers if they are close geographically.

Almost certainly the less talented linguists will be doing Spanish. They will have chosen this and the better students will be pushed into German. German has fallen off a cliff in schools and wanting to do German and Italian for a degree would result in lots of lowish offers from many universities because there would be little competition.

As a country, we don’t care about languages. We think children can teach themselves and it doesn’t matter what they are taught or how. No wonder many grad linguists come from Private or grammar schools. Too few comprehensive children get a chance. No other developed country think they can just leave it to the students to pick up English but we arrogantly think that’s ok. It’s not.

My DD did Italian and didn’t actually think Spanish was the best to go with it. French is better as they are both closer to Latin.

when I was at school, like the majority of posters no doubt, I got the choice of languages

Errrmmm no, everyone studied French except the top set who had the choice of French or German, not both. Not enough students wanted to take up German so it was dropped completely from the timetable in the 3rd year (year 9 in todays money).

If you made the choice to study French up to A Level then you could also take Spanish at A Level too because its easy to pick up apparently.

Very few children can do Spanish A level without tuition, unless they are native speakers of course. We have obviously had crap language tuition for years!

The lack of choice, which then affects what it is possible to take at GCSE and A Level is a sad reflection of spending cuts.

I think children should be able to choose, where there are several options. No one would say that one is to do History and cannot do Geography because of timetabling issues would they. Both are taught.
Many schools manage this issue by running a carousel in the first year so students get to try 2 or 3 languages and then they choose and are put into form groups based on that.

In the school where my children go, they are asked to pick 2 languages from a choice of 3 on entry. They will then do the 2 for at least 1 year and after that have the choice to just continue with one (more time spent on it) or to continue with two. Most will continue with both until they choose GCSEs.

To be denied the choice to take Spanish, when this is the subject you are likely to want to do at GCSE and A Level just seems wrong and to be closing doors rather than opening them, especially when the school does offer it.

I don't like the idea that a school refuses to meet to discuss an issue either. I think they should be willing to meet with a parent if they have something they want to discuss. This doesn't mean that they need to agree to whatever the parent wants, but everyone should have a chance to explain and express and discuss.

It is not spending cuts that is the only influence. Lack of teachers and lack of understanding that two languages are important to linguists is key. Schools don’t care about languages because few children are good at them and want to study languages to a high level. Few “bog standard” schools offer much choice or two languages to those who could benefit. My DDs were asked to choose History or Geography the way! Schools are wierd at times!

I agree that many schools don't value languages. Many don't push a language at GCSE that hard now, despite ebacc and because they know that results are often not that good and weaker students find them hard. If few students take GCSE languages, then schools hire fewer language teachers (which are hard to get too) and then fewer different languages can be offered - a bit of a cycle.

Really - made to choose History or Geography in Yr 7 or before GCSE? never heard of that before. When did they have to choose? Did it mean they couldnt do both for GCSE?

With Ops situation, it sounded to me that people were asked to express preferences and also to give any reasons relevant to those preferences. I think lots of schools do this. Op sounds like she gave some valid reasons, and given that some students were put into classes doing Spanish, it would seem she could have been put into one of those classes. There may have been others who also expressed a preference for Spanish but gave no further reasons.

If a school asks for further information and says it will be considered, then I really think they should consider it.

I can see that once everyone has been told their classes and allocations, it is difficult then to swap people around and it would be unfair to ask someone else to swap. However, given that OP gave lots of info as early as possible in the process and more than once, it sounds to me as if the school perhaps just ignored that info and perhaps a timetabler who didn't have access to all of this communication from OP, made the allocations and issued the info. This kind of thing happens a lot - people making decisions and allocations don't have all of the communications about it, which may have gone to another person and not been passed on. I think it is this which OP is annoyed about.

And I can see why school don't want to set a precedent of allowing swaps after allocations, because it open the floodgates. I suspect that they won't meet with OP partly because they are the kind of school which isn't interested in engaging with parents, even though they refer to individualised learning (ha ha) but also because they know this will be hard to explain and justify - OP gave clear reasons for the preferences before the allocations were made, and these were seemingly ignored. Sounds like a mistake to me, and one they D probably won't admit to.

Regarding pushy parents swaying schools and getting their own way....well, if having received the allocations, but never having said anything previously about the reason for the choices or the importance of it for DD, the OP suddenly started demanding change and being shirty, I would agree it was unacceptable and the school should stand firm. However, this was clearly not the case and OP had communicated clearly. Schools often talk about wanting to be in partnership with parents and to have good communication - well Op has tried to do that and the school has resisted attempts to cooperate. If I found myself in this situation, I would feel annoyed and push for a meeting and not settle for being fobbed off.

No one would say that one is to do History and cannot do Geography because of timetabling issues would they

You can't do both at gcse at dds school and you couldnt when I was at school. You had to choose 1 humanity so history or geography not both.

In years 7-9 they study geography 1 week and history in that same slot in week 2. That is obviously not enough study time for any subject at gcse.

When I was at school there wasn’t a choice. I don’t know of any schools where there was at KS3. It doesn’t seem to have affected uptake at all.

When I was at school in the 1970s - at a bog standard comp -everyone got a choice

• MFL 1 year 7 - French or Spanish
• MFL 2 year 8 - Italian, Russian or whichever of the year 7 languages you didn't choose

also an option of Latin in year 10

I think children should be able to choose, where there are several options. No one would say that one is to do History and cannot do Geography because of timetabling issues would they. Both are taught.
Generally that is because both are a common GCSE combination so schools will have them in more than one block.
At KS3, both are taught but at most school I have taught at humanities get less timetable time than MFL.

At one school, KS3 history and geography and RE were grouped as 'humanities' and at GCSE you couldn't do History and Geograpjy because thr numbers weren't there to make offering both a viable curriculum decision. You could however do 2 technological based subjects, including engineering in partnershop with the local college (other schools there isn't tje give to allow multiple technology subjects).

Schools have to offer what they can with the cohorts they have and thr staff available.

I suspect that they won't meet with OP partly because they are the kind of school which isn't interested in engaging with parents, even though they refer to individualised learning
Individualised learning is the sort of silly mission statement way of saying we differentiate. It doesn't mean you get everything personalised the way you want.
The OP has spoken to the head of languages. The school have said it risks opening the floodgates and experience says it does.
Fast forwars 12 months, parent a is complaining about classes/subjects/preferences and parent b says oh so and so had tjis issue but they demanded an issue and said their child needed x to happen and the school changed them to the other group. So that year 5 parents hear of this, and they talk to their friends etc.
I've worked in a school where that became the culture and it was a bloody nightmare.

Then on them not having a meeting. Why should they? Again, parent a wants a meeting and to be talked through staffing and timetabling over a decision thathas already been made. Thenparent b thinks i'm also not happy and expect to have a meeting outlining why and before you know iy you've had half a dozen wanting meetings.
So that is 6 hours of meeting time on something like this when there'll be other parents writinf MN threads saying AIBU to think the head really should have been able to meet with me about my child's SEND provision without making me wait 3 weeks? / an issue occureed in school and i was told that it would go to senior leadership but it's a week later and it's still not been picked up. Surely it's important?
Both those parents are entirely justified. Unfortunately, senior staff are too busy having meetings explaining timetables to people who are annoyed they aren't getting special treatment for their child.

I did mean could not do Geography and History at GCSE. Sorry I was not clear. Two languages should be “common” for good linguists! It is due to lack of good teaching and not understanding the needs of children and our country that stops schools being flexible and allowing two. It is a disgrace.

Children in our country - that should have read.

Agree. There is constant moaning about the lack of linguists and language take up, but people are far less likely to do a language degree or take up a new language if they have only had experience of one language since the start of secondary school. The chance to do 2 is as important as the chance to take triple science, for people who might like to be linguists.

Sadly, this narrowing of the curriculum and removal of choice is a sign of both funding issues, plus schools feeling the need to restrict choice in order to meet the demands of government scrutiny and performance measures. Many schools are finding they cannot offer music or art or other creative subjects at GCSE because groups are too small to be viable.

Grammar schools and independents will be teaching 2 languages plus Latin from Year 7, strongly encouraging everyone to continue 1 at GCSE and ensuring able linguists can do 2 at GCSE and possibly study others through other means too, so that by Uni application time, a linguist may be able to say they have studied 2 or 3 to GCSE and done short courses in a couple of others too - the kind if things that confirm to them that they have an aptitude and interest in languages, which are difficult to establish if all you've ever done is French. Again, there's a lack of parity of opportunity and the gap widens.

Despite what some say on this thread, I would encourage the OP to persist in attempts to communicate with the school about this issue. I would again request a meeting, mention individualised learning, home school partnership and daughters interest in languages, already expressed through initiative taken to study outside of the classroom. I think that persistence pays off - and while this might not be fair, in terms of not all children have parents who will persist, when a good case can be made for a request, I think it's worth doing so. This parent, whilst acknowledging their child is one child in a big school and it doesn't revolve around her, can also push to make her case, if she believes it is a reasonable one. As a general principle I don't think parents should be cowed into not communicating with school, especially when schools frequently talk about a partnership. And I'm sure this will be unpopular, but I would also consider writing to the governors to express disappointment, that having been asked to express a preference and any reasons behind it, and having done that more than once in good time, there seems to be no interest in actually considering the information supplied. If this is really important to DD and her future career path then I would be willing to push hard and make a bit of a nuisance to myself if necessary. Unpopular probably, but sometimes systems are a bit daft and it needs saying rather than just accepting.

Some good points Wombat. It's a shame all schools cannot afford similar breadth of subjects for their pupils forcing parents like myself to target grammars and independents to give my children the opportunities and experience. It goes against my social conscience but I have to do what I can for my kids....

I hope OP you manage to get this resolved if not, private lessons may be the way forward...

How did this move on, OP.

The OP’s school is giving her the chance to study two languages though. She has just been unlucky not to get her preference for the second one. And for what it’s worth, this situation could easily and does happen in grammar or independent schools with exactly the same outcome. This isn’t really a comp vs grammar thing.

I do get why parents want to keep fighting for their child’s needs to be met over and above everybody else’s, but schools have to balance the needs and wants of every child. And if lots of parents insist on making life difficult for schools, then offering children the chance to express a preference will become much more trouble than it’s worth and they will stop doing it and just allocate children a second language.

I do get why parents want to keep fighting for their child’s needs to be met over and above everybody else’s, but schools have to balance the needs and wants of every child. And if lots of parents insist on making life difficult for schools, then offering children the chance to express a preference will become much more trouble than it’s worth and they will stop doing it and just allocate children a second language.
This ^^
The school doesn't have to ask for a preference.
Ultimately what some people need to realise is when you're running an organisation of 1000-2000 people is that some decisions have to be made at an organisational level factoring on balance a range of variables.
Equally, people saying just change it for this one student here and th/just meet with this parent who happens to be annoyed they didn't get their preference aren't considering what happens if every disappointed child has parents pushing a swap or every disappointed parent wants a meeting.
I think of it this way, sometimes staff have to teach a class (usually y7/8) out of specialism for a year because of timetabling. Sure, the teacher may not like it but ultimately it's a decision made balancing a number of factors.

Get to college and at a small 6th form the a level options you ideally want might not fit (i know my 1st choice ones didn't).

Get to uni and some elective modules migjt clash. What's going to happen then? Mum calls university lamenting their 20 year old's a life plan has been destroyed?

Sometimes in life and large organisations you don't get what you want.

Why is expressing a preference for a language and asking the school to reconsider when the least popular language is offered being “difficult”. This is an academic subject and whilst I do not agree with the OP that Spanish GCSE is necessary for a career in fashion (unless you want to work for Mango or Zara) it is still putting linguists at a disadvantage. Languages build up learning Year on year and are incremental. Just because a language belongs to a family of languages, does not mean the learning of the structure of the language and pronunciation are the same or indeed easy.

Some universities will not offer Spanish as ab initio. It is not acceptable for children to be told to teach themselves. The truth is that this DD is being asked to do German because the class would be small and the vast majority have asked for Spanish. The OP has devised a rather odd reason for wanting Spanish. Saying DD wanted to do it at degree level would have more weight in my view because a GCSE will mean next to nothing in the world of Work and even A level isn’t good enough to work in Spain effectively. Fashion will be more about expertise in that field rather than GCSE in Spanish.

However, I would also expect schools to prioritise the needs of linguists over those who hate languages (and plenty do). The school has some flexibility but is choosing to be dogmatic. The idea that schools will just tell students what they will study is universally not acceptable so why is it for languages?

Elective modules often appear again in MFL degrees, unless the lecturer disappears! Few don’t get what they want.

Also, many schools bend over backwards to offer 3 separate science GCSEs, computer science, and a whole host of subjects to that are not needed at GCSE for Any Degree at all! However a MFL GCSE is required as a building block for A level and for some MFL degrees. It is on a par with the other subjects which are required as opposed to “nice to do”. You clearly don’t understand languages Maisy, like most in education.

I also don't accept that there cannot be flexibility and no-one should ask.
Schools make adjustments all the time in response to all kinds of things, including parental requests.

Children swap GCSE options after they have started. They move between triple and dual science. They make their option choices and then ask to swap before beginning. Parents request that they are not in a class with a particular child and give a reason for it. When asked to express a preference for a practical or arts subject, parents do so and occasionally give compelling reasons as to why that choice is particularly important.

You see, sometimes these things really do matter and will have a long term implication for a child. Okay, if a school doesn't offer a subject, then a child cannot study it, but when they do offer it and half the year or whatever will do it, to deny someone who really wants to do it and who can make a good case for it seems wrong. Isn't this where schools being sensible and showing an ability to consider on a case-by-case basis is important - especially when they actually invite people to explain any strong reasons for a request.

The school however needs to do this BEFORE giving out the allocations, because afterwards it is difficult to move some someone. This is where this school went wrong in my view. They didn't take into account the good reasons given for the preference. That said, it is difficult to believe that across a whole year group, at this point in the year, it is all so rigid for next Seotember already, that there isn't room for a little bit of movement. Absolute rigidity about anything is usually daft and unnecessary.

I don’t think there’s harm in asking, which is why I suggested sending an e-mail and asking up thread. But talking about ‘rights’ and suggesting not letting it drop is more that just asking.

And there’s no evidence that the school didn’t take the OPs reasons into account before making the allocations. It might just be that they didn’t consider the reason good enough compared to all of the other reasons that were given. As someone said it is a slightly odd reason.