School being difficult about language choices for my daughter

[trefusis22]

Does anyone have experience or advice regarding how to get a school to allow your child to take the language choices we would like them to make? Ds is Italian and my daughter already studying this out of school doing gcse early. School asked and we responded about any pre gcse language choices although they don't guarantee them. We wrote in in good time and requested Spanish as good chance daughter is going to do languages going forwards and it's a good match to the Italian. School have responded saying we have no choice and she is down to do German. It's totally random and we do not get to choose!

This doesn't make sense to us and school will not meet us and say their decision is binding.

What rights do we have - is there a duty of care for the school to take our daughters future language ambitions into account?

Any experience on this / helpful info gratefully received. Thank u

DS's school has the same policy, three classes learn German and three learn Spanish.
One parent though moved form group as she is German and wanted her son to (sensibly) do German rather than Spanish. Could that be an option?

It's frustrating, but you've said in your OP that the school have asked for preferencea but can't guarantee it.

You've given a preference.
They've not been able to match it (probably due to staffing, timetabling, blocking against other subjects, allocation of form groups)

I really don't see what the issue is. They've been perfectly up front.

At the end of the day, it's GCSE. All friends of mine from uni who did languages courses picked up entirely new languages in first year. E.g. one did beginner russian (main language was german) and did part of their course in Russia. Another picked up French, main language was Spanish. They did 2 overseas terms.
If they are goos at languages it really won't be a big deal.

The issue is more about how the school have behaved . They asked for input and preference - which we gave right away - dd is already doing Italian gcse early outside of school as DS is Italian. ... they asked for input - have ignored it - not been any dialogue before choices announced even though we repeatedly asked and now won't switch because it sets a precedent

Our point is where is the partnership with parents here - we had sound reasoned argument which we gave early - there are 3 Spanish classes in the year group - DD is good at languages - and neither she nor we want her to do German. Whether it shows versatility or not is not the issue - DD wants to do Spanish and French a levels and then go into fashion with them - (dd is in fashion) German is not part of the plan . There is no real reason not to be able to do Spanish .... it's just weird and does not support schools published aim of individualised learning.
I just wanted other parents experience of this situation. Thanks

I guess they try and let kids do what they want, but if too many pick one option, then not all are going to be able to do that option.
I should think they put all those requesting Spanish in a hat and pull out the number of places available. Those left do German. You were just unlucky in the draw.
What does your daughter want to do - you seem more concerned that your preference has been 'ignored'.

But they asked for a preference and said they couldn't guarantee it.

They took in PREFERENCES.
The timetabling is not a dialogue between school and whoever wants to shout off because they don't like x y z.
Hell, arranging secondary timetables is a bloody nightmare in every school i've worked in. It's not just where do yoy allocate students but also where do yoy allocate staff (e.g. spanish teacher could offer another y8 class but y8 on that side of the year is blocked against KS5 languagaes so the a level has to stand etc)

I entirely understand why they aren't shifting around because then you end up with a situation where the procedures apply to all children except the ones with loud parents. (It's why schools also tend not to go for swapping classes because my child liked teacher a last year and we don't like teacher b this year. We aren't happy with teacher b so want them moving classes into teacher a's class)

What you are actually saying is that you are annoyed that your preference wasn't granted.

I understand your disappointment but you are coming across like a royal PITA who has little understanding of the word 'preferences'.

They asked for input and preference - which we gave right away - dd is already doing Italian gcse early outside of school as DS is Italian. ... they asked for input - have ignored it

They asked for input from 100+ students not just you. They haven't ignored your input theyve followed their stated procedure and your dd didnt get her preferred subject. They told you it was a preference and NOT a guaranteed place.

Im really not sure what you expect the school to say to you but they cannot allow random students to have their subjects changed on the basis that their parent complained that 'it isn't fair'.

Your dd can study Spanish outside of school and sit it at gcse at school paid for by you. My dd is sitting a gcse equivalent in Norwegian. I have had to pay for it myself, she studies outside of school because her school doesn't offer it.

You need to look at alternatives available to you.

ReinettePompadour
But the OP isn't interested in the fact that a school (depending on size has 180-240 students in a year).

she has a plan and her wants come top and an entire life plan is going to ruined because of doing a different language at GCSE (even though it won't be because you can pick beginner languages modules up at university if you want that path).

We publish GCSE option blocks in the spring.
Students give their preferential options.
Sometimes those blocks have to change (e.g. not enough staffing to meet demand / too few students to make an option viable/ need to increase capacity in some subjects so the subject is kept but it moves blocks).

Given the OP is already going fown the route of implying the school aim of 'individualised learning' means give me what i want, we're probably wasting time pointing out all the reasons why a preference isn't a demand and why good schools follow procedure so decisions aren't made revolving around loud, pushy, unreasonable individuals.

Have you actually spoken to the school? There will be a reason. Maybe certain sets do Spanish and certain sets German. I doubt the two languages will be timetabled at the same time.
And yes they asked for preferences. They didn't say all students would get their preferred option.

They have spoken to the school repeatedly.

They're just pissed off and feeling hard done to because the school has told them what the score is and won't shift people around because it sets a precedent. OP is annoyed because obviously they should get their way, but probably would be pissed off in a year's time if their DC was moved abo5it because another parent got wind of the fact you can get special treatment by kicking off at school.

I'm not suggesting they should get their own way. They clearly believe this decision is made for no good reason. Maybe knowing the reason would be helpful.

Maybe knowing the reason would be helpful. The reason is its a preference and not a guaranteed place.

The school cannot spend hours explaining every little reason why decisions are made to every single parent.

The OP put her dd preference, she didnt get it. They need to move on from this and try to work out what they are going to do now.

It's simple.
School asked for preferences but don't guarantee them.
School allocate timetables and groups.
Not all children will always get their prefernece.

The OP has spoken to school. They've said that's how the situation is. They are not changing because what happens is a culture is created where the same few learn that they can get their own way by stomping their feet.

The school do not have to explain or justify their timetabling decisions to appease someone who can't grasp the concept of a 'preference'.

To be fair, even a 3 hour meeting going through the whole school timetable for all 5 year groups wouldn't be enough for the OP who clearly believes she should get preferential treatment (seen that attirude and tone too many times).

Maisy's right. If you send a polite e-mail they should explain their decision, but ultimately they aske for preferences from a large number of students and not everybody is going to get their first choice.

That's usually made clear in these situations and unless they specifically said 'first come first served' how early you got in shouldn't come into it.

Our point is where is the partnership with parents here

The partnership is them trying to accommodate all, by offering preferences. Not choices, not demands, preferences. When timetabling for a school it's hard or impossible to keep everyone happy, and no matter how early you and your snowflake put in your preferences, they don't have to accommodate you.

Language provision is often poor I find. Ds's school only does German. Unfortunately he moved there in a Year 9 having done 2 years of Spanish at his previous school & he's finding it impossible to catch up (he liked Spanish) so now he won't do a language GCSE.

I don't understand why it is considered such a hardship for the school to give a reason for the timetabling even if change isn't possible. Or why change is apparently so impossible. Once the school year starts the OP's dd will have to put up with learning a subject in which she has no interest while probably hearing the complaints of children who have been allocated the subject she does want. Plus having the extra work of not only taking Italian outside of school but possibly Spanish too. I don't suppose school will allow her a study block instead of the German class?

There probably isn’t a problem if the parents are happy with the generic reason for the decision. Part of the decision making might have involved other pupils and the school wouldn’t be able to get into the detail of that.

Probably the school will just reiterate what was probably said at the time the options were given which is that: students can take either one or the other, they may express a preference and the school will try to honour that but the numbers involved mean it might not be possible for every student to get first choice and the school will make a decision based on their knowledge of the children and other information supplied by the parents.

I did just German at GCSE then started French at A Level in school after asking my head of department at the end of Year 11 (there was a timetable issue for me at GCSE). Could she not just start it at A Level when there is less likely to be a timetable clash? It's really not that difficult to catch up on GCSE standard for a good linguist, especially given her prior knowledge of a similar Romantic language. I then studied Spanish ab initio at university alongside French and has no problems.

nooka
Timetabling will be the reason.

What more would the OP want? A breakdown of which groups go where? Which other subjects are blocked against each other?

It doesn't fit. The pupil can't have their ideal language.

Let's be real, the school could give a child by chilf account of who goes where and the OP would be back demanding another meeting because they've worked out that if 12 students get moved around then all their child's classes can be changed so they get their own way.
The decision has been made. It doesn't fit. The child is studying German.

Our school showed both ds and dd where there were clashes when they didn't get the options they wanted. They then discussed possible alternatives. Neither got exactly what they wanted and they had to consider some subjects they hadn't previously thought about but they both got something better than originally proposed. Plus they understood the issues and felt listened to. Which I think is pretty important when talking about teenagers and their engagement with school. It required a bit of software (needed for timetabling anyway) and some of the counselors time but it's built into the way schools work here. We actually changed schools because our original children's school didn't have enough options for dd (ds took extra courses outside of school) so not perfect at all, but the OP's school approach just seems so 'like it or lump it' to me.

Oh and I don't really understand why you think the OP is so unreasonable to be disappointed or to want to follow up. She met with the head of languages once last year, communicated choices when asked to do so, arranged for separate tutoring for her dd to take Italian and has not met with the school otherwise or had any communication from them apart from being told the courses that her dd has to take. Are parents and children not allowed to talk to schools about issues that are very important to them? I can't see how this works well alongside ideas about parent - school partnerships.

nooka
The fact they got in early, had a meeting with the head of languages and have arranged Italian tutoring out of school is irrelevant to the timetabling of the main school day (schools don't give special preference when drawing up a timetable - there is almost never any float in them)

I can see meeting with children if gcse option blocks have been moved. They are always told there may be changes. I get that.

Because the reason for OP's situation will be timetabling. That's the reason. It doesn't fit

Say Child A gets a meeting, but actually there are others who didn't get their preference, then they want a move or a detailed explanation, then times that meeting by every child who might be disappointed. Suddenly 'just go through where the clashes are' doesn't seem so manageable.

Are parents and children not allowed to talk to schools about issues that are very important to them?

Of course parents can talk to schools about issues. I've not for one minute suggested otherwise.
But there comes a point where this is school procedure, the timetable is how it is, it doesn't fit and you just have to get over it amd stop thinking that being early/having a grand plan/having tutoring out of school gives you any additional leverage.

As an example, we are a core subject in a big school.
To get the classes to fit we have a number of KS3 classes split between 2 teachers. It's not ideal but that is the reality of timetabling. Teachers don't get a say. We don't get an explanation. That's the timetable. If tjere was a better way, it would have happened.

The core subjects are staggered against non core subjects so a child can't shift english class easily because another english class might overlap 6/8 times and the other 2 lessons map onto non core. So for the child to move it means either losing a lesson of drama/music/geography and then having 2 hours where they have to work on their own in the study base. This is mainly because GCSE and A level blocking goes in first and KS3 is slotted in after.

At GCSE things are blocked more so there's half the year doing english/maths at the same time. There's a limited amount of flexibility if there is another class at the same time and there's space in the class but one side of the year is bigger so on the big side any move will impact on other students because the classes are larger.

I don't really see that the OP or their child needs to have the minuate of timetabling outlined for them to accept the timetable is what it is.

Are these GCSE choices or not? The OP says ‘pre-GCSE language choices’ so I was assuming KS3.

If it is KS3, it’s going to be much more difficult to switch the timetable about just to suit her.

As a slight aside, I’d she’s studying a language outside of school and wants to use it to work in the future, wouldn’t she be better getting a different qualification demonstrating competence in the language rather than a GCSE?