Pointless homework - WWYD?

[EvilTwins]

DTDs are in yr 7. One gets endless amounts of homework (the other doesn’t) and much of it feels a bit pointless. Today, she told me she has a 3 week history project for which she has to “make something” to do with castles - she can make a cake or a model or a mood board with lots of pictures. I asked her what The actual learning in the project is and she doesn’t know. Last week, she was given a project where she had to do a presentation about herself. That’s for study skills, and they are focusing on the presentation aspect. Her sister does the same subjects (different teachers) and did not have the same homework - hers was to practise the presentation skills, rather than spend hours doing a pointless PowerPoint.

Homework should be to either consolidate learning, extend learning or prepare for a lesson (or test) Making a model of Lincoln Castle out of fudge does neither of those things.

WWYD? Contact School? DTD2 could be spending her time so much better.

caveat : unless the child has shown distinct improvement in these skills over time... or is obviously working hard themselves to overcome a barrier.

the assignments taught him he can do annoying tasks

I'm guessing that wasn't the original learning intention

I don't think anyone is saying that creative homeworks are useless per se, clearly there are creative subjects out there. But creative for the sake of creative is generally a waste of time.

2014
So I take it you've not RTFT where me and another poster we're discussing how mood boards tasks can actually be used effectively when well designed.

But sure, you and your 10 year old know so much about setting homework tasks that they could throw together my GCSE homework task in 15 minutes because it has no value. 😏

I always find it fascinating that it's people with limited knowledge of an area that make sweeping statements and people with knowledge in an area say 'yes it can be... but often it's a bit more complex than that'. True of anything from education to politics. The less people know, the more certain they seem to be that their own view is correct.

Nope, I did not read that.
I was replying to the op

Secondary age, I reckon 1/3-1/2 of the class don't do the h/wk at all. 1/3 do a high standard. Few inbetween. The kids self-differentiate.

That's definitely not true unless at the lower ability end. I probably have to nag 3 out of a class of 24 and then may end up with 1 who never does it.

A creative task gets a lower completion rate than a written one. For a range of reasons, not least the value they place on it.

The lowest completion rate is at A level!

and 'self differentiation' is not really an acceptable form of differentiation!

It genuinely is not hard to set a choice of tasks. I don't get why you can't see that?

@MaisyPops I've read it now, but I still think I agree with op that a mood board on castles is a bit pointless and my dd could knock it out pretty fast to get it out the way.

But if she knocks it out quicjly then it's her effort and attitude that makes it a poor homework.

Homework set - do some research abd make a moodboard about castles

Child 1 - Has decided (in conjunction with disparaging comments from her parents) that it is a pointless homework task. Home have told her it's suchba pointless easy tasks that she can throw it together in 15 mins. So she does just that. Quick google image search, cut wnd stick.

Child 2 - May not love creative tasks but their parents (despite thinking 'how on earth can we enthuse her') encourage them to do some research. They talk about castles with their child. They watch some YouTube videos to get facts and explore the different types of castles. The child then decides which bits of their research will go on a mood board.

Child 2 learns more than child 1, not because of anything in the task design but because child 1's parents can't be bothered to get on board with homework if they don't like the look of it.

Child 2 learns that there's a wealth of info out there. Child 1 learns that castles look different because google images had lots of different ones.

Child 2 learns that information can be presented in different ways and how to prioritise information. Child 1 learns that it doesn't really matter what you do as long as something is handed in.

Child 2 learns resilience and strategies for doing new things outside their comfort zone. Child 1 learns that if we don't like soemthing then don't worry about it because Mum will back me if school have a problem with my shoddy work.

Child 2 learns that in life we have to do tasks that maybe wouldn't be our first choice but it's still important to have a go and try your best. Child 1 learns that if you don't like something then either don't do it or you can just do a poor job of it.

It's an attitude issue.
By telling your child 'it's fine just shove soemthing together' you tell them that if something doesn't appeal to them thrn opting out and doing the bare minimum is the way to go. It'e hardly instilling a good ethic.
In fact, it starts contributing to the attitudes of 'DC will listen to one teacher but nit another because teacher 1 is funny and teacher 2 isn't', 'well yes their classwork might not have been that good but the thing is they don't really enjoy writing essays'.

'Mood board' assumes that the child actually knows what one is, how to put one together and not just stick a bunch of pictures of a castle onto a page. Unless the history teacher has spent time and effort explaining this (waste of time!) then they shouldn't be asking for it.

parents can't be bothered to get on board

If homework requires parents to facilitate, then it shouldn't be set at secondary.

noble
The child can do a mood board without parental help. I would argue the job of parents is to be involved in their child's education and encouraging them to compelte homework is part of that.

I use creative homeworks from time to time. I explain it and outline the purpose. Students try their best and hand it in to a reasonable standard.

I don't get the irrational sweeping statements against entire tasks rooted in 'but we don't like them therefore they are pointless'. (It feels much like education debate on other social media platforms where people scoff at any mention of group work because everyone knows traditional didactic teaching is best now you know).
I'm a reasonably traditional teacher but it's nice to mix it uo a bit where you can achieve the same outcome in another way.

Yes Maisy, but you're holding up Child 2 as the ideal, where parents are watching youtube videos with them and holding their hand and basically doing in the homework what the kid should already know to do from the teacher.

If Child 1 has decided it's pointless and the parents back them up then the teacher hasn't set it properly have they?

I'm just showing that attitude makes a massive difference and part of that is what parents are saying.

When a child at secondary has a dozen teachers each individual teacher can't takle an attitude from their parents (who they spend the most timw with) which says 'if you don't see the point then don't bother'.
These are the same people who probably call up wasting my time to tell me that i shouldn't confiscae earrings because 'it doesn't affect their learning'.

Why should it be acceptable for some parents to decide that their child doesn't need to bother if they don't like the task?

I am agaisnt setting pointless homework (and I make this very clear to pupils) so if I set a task there is a reason and I expect it done to a high standard. Most students get that and do it.
It's interesting when you have lazy students who day 'my.mam says...' because they are the ones who take longer to get it. Then on parents evening i have chats with homr and they say 'you're the first person who hasn't complained about homework' and which point I have to hold back from saying 'well maybe if you actually got your kid to do homework rather than letting them pick and choose people wouldn't be saying that'.

It's all part of the same culture of 'stuff what you've been told to do. If you don't like it don't do it.'

I think crappy homework can be set and is set in schools. The solution to that is for the child to complete the homework that week and then for the parent to contact the teacher and discuss it sensibly and raise concerns.

I think there is a world of difference between

1. 'Make a mood board about castles'. No guidance given, no success criteria, no examples shown.

and

2. 'Make a mood board about castles with textual annotations. Cover at least 1 of the following areas - how construction has changed over time, naming of parts, attack and defence, suitable locations. Extra credit for covering 2 or more areas.' Plus an couple of examples from last year shown briefly to the class.

Maisy seems to set type 2 homeworks. What I and other parents here are mainly complaining about is the type 1.

Type 1 is a giant waste of time for the reasons you've outlined. But that is an issue with the TEACHER and their setting of homework, not moodboards as a homework.

That's what I'm trying to get across. My issue is with people saying creative homeworks are pointless and a waste of time, my child would just sling a moodboard together in 15 mins because it's not worth doing.

A worksheet can be a giant waste of time if poorly designed but people wouldn't be dismissive of worksheet homeworks just because it can be done badly.

If it's a one off poor quality homework thrn suck it up, do it to a reasonable standard and move on. If there is a routine problem with homework then call school and speak to the teacjer about concerns, don't tell the child the task is pointless so not to really bother.

I have a really big issue with pointless homework, mainly set by my dd's state comp- the maths is good (online but has videos to watch if stuck, all 100% has to be completed, takes about 2 hours a week). But some of the other subjects are terrible- lots of Powerpoints, posters and difficult to use IT online facilities to do things that are nothing to do with IT, so Design and Tech, Science, and it just means hours of trying to work the (often quite flawed) online programmes and far less on the actual content of whatever thing they are creating. It's also quite lazy- go away and write up the process of making plastics we had recently, but with no link to appropriate Y7 resources, so ended up stuck on the internet with far too hard/terminology she didn't understand trying to rearrange words so as to not look like she's plagiarizing.

Best homework is fairly succinct, has good directions and asks them to focus on or develop further the main points covered in class.

Things that are off on tangents, creative but with no direction, use difficult online IT packages, require huge amounts of time (one of the language packages they use requires perfect copying of foreign phrases from day one, very hard unless you are a whizz with keyboards), questions set in science that even several teachers with PhDs can't answer.... I hate it, because I can see the teacher themselves would struggle. I set tasks at uni which the majority of my students can do without further direction, and stretches their thinking- and isn't too time-consuming for the purpose. A lot of teachers seem to be stuck in the 'make a poster of X' without looking to see if the resources are even out there and it isn't based on class work.

summer
I agree there is poor homework set.

I do think that people need to raise concerns with teachera directly though, not tell their child they don't have to bother.

2014 moodboard homeworks have not got to our schools yet.

But upthread I did mention the horrendous infographic.

Would probably take your DC 5 seconds.

I have also mentioned that teachers should be differentiating homework. Most don't.

I do think that people need to raise concerns with teachers directly though

But then you get teachers whinging about parents complaining re homework, emailing them at midnight, etc. How likely is a teacher to actually take it on board seriously if parents "raise concerns", or will it just be ignored with the teacher whinging about the parents on social media?

Maisy I am kind of amused that you recommend that parents complain to the school about crap homework following your previous post where you listed a billion complaints from parents suggesting that parents will always whine about homework whatever you set.

OP here. Just to be clear - I haven’t suggested to DTD that I have any negative view about her homework. I asked her what the learning within the homework was (she didn’t know) and I have told her she won’t be making a castle out of cake. She’s been given three weeks to do the homework (their official policy is that homework should take 20 mins per piece so I guess this means it’s supposed to take her an hour) and I’ve told her that I will help her with it tomorrow.

This whole process has made me think about homework though. I teach Performing Arts, though these days only to KS4 & KS5. I have always believed that homework should only be set when it is useful and that no homework is better than pointless homework. I will happily argue the toss with SLT if I am pulled up on not following a homework timetable. Having DC at secondary school for the first time has confirmed my views - most 11 year olds are busy these days. Mine leave for school at 7.30 and get home at 4.30. They have music lessons, go to a choir and a youth theatre and need some downtime. Pointless homework keeps them busy when really they have enough to do. Useful homework however, is great.

But then you get teachers whinging about parents complaining re homework, emailing them at midnight, etc. How likely is a teacher to actually take it on board seriously if parents "raise concerns", or will it just be ignored with the teacher whinging about the parents on social media?

1. Don't email at midnight
2. Don't email expecting a reply within an hour and theb call the school repeatedly to ask if I've got your email (this is true sadly)
3. Communicate reasonably

If a parent sends me ab email saying:

Hi Mrs Pops,
I was wondering if it would be possible to speak to you about the homework set for DC as I'm keen to help support DC's learning. Could you give me a call please

Then I'd happily call them back. Or if thry call up and say DC has had homework on X Y X. Obviously I don't know the class context but as DC's parent I'm a little worried that they aren't gaining maximum benefit from these tasks because... I back you completely on homework but this is the battle we are having at home and i feel the tasks are contributing to it. Is there any chance you could look into some other tasks?' then I'll take it on board.

What i will never take on board are things like this:
(Note in planner) Mrs Pops, Emily has NOT completed their homework because WE were too busy at the weekend to sit and colour with her. She says no homework gets a detention but she will not be having a detention for this

(In lesson) I haven't done my homework because my mam says she's going to speak to you

(Phone call)
Parent: I want to speak to Mrs Pops
Reception: I'm afraid she is teaching
Parent: But I want to speak to her before period 3 when she teaches my child.
Reception: that's not possible. She is teaching. We generally have a 3 day turn around on non-emergency messages
Parent: But i'm not having her tell my child off for not doing a detention. Can you give her a message that...
Reception: I'm afraid not. I can arrange for Mrs Pops to call back within the next 3 days.
Parent: I want to speak to the head. You claik you want to work with parenta but then ignore us
Receptuon: the head is unavailable. I can ask him to call you back.
Parent: I want to speak to someone senior now.
(Recpetion find a member of SLT who takes no shit)
SLT: Hello Parent. As our reception staff have already said, you cannot demand to speak yo staff. You are welcome to request a call back or make an appointment for a meeting.
Parent: But.... goes on long rant...
SLT: Your options are a call back or a meeting.

(Phone call): I'm unhappy with your homework. You clearly don't know thr clas and insist on setting wrong homework/too much homework/not enough homework. How do you expect my child to do wrll when you can't even be bothered?

(Phone call)
Parenr: My child informs me that you have supposedly given them a detention for incomplete homework.
Me: yes. The task was... and they have done...
Parent: well how were they supposed to know. You clearly didn't explain it well enough.
Me: actually we went through it in class and...
Parent: obviously not. Mychild would lie to me!
Me: as I was saying before you cut me off, we went through it in class and looked at the criteria...
Parent: how are they meant to know whay good enough is!?
Me: as inwas sayinh the criteria tell them that and i also showed them some models so all was clear
Parent: Well they forgot didn't they. You teachers forget what it is like as a child. How are they meant ti temember all of that?!
Me: The sheet was stuck in the student books and an electronic copy was put on the VLE to access at home
Parent: As if I know how to use the VLE
Me: but the sheet was also in your child's book.
Parent: You still havent told me why you have given my child a detention
Me: because the homework says 2 pages abd they've done 5 lines
Parent: It's been a busy weekend. They had (lists events and outings)
Me: I appreciate that, but they have had a week so the detention stands.
Parent: What part of I don't give permission are you not getting!
Me: I don't require permission. The law affords me the right to set detentions. We inform home as a courtesy. Detentions are clearly in our behaviour policy, as is homework.
Parent: I'm getting fed up with you. Theu are NOT doing a detention for a piece of homework that you didn't explain.
Me: The detention stands. I don't require your consent and I don't appreciate your confrontational tone so I think this discussion is coming yo a close.
Parent: But you aren't getting it. They will NOT BE DOING A DETENTION.
Me: If they don't attend the detention I will follow school behaviour policy. I hope you choose to support the school on this.
Parent: I HAVE SAID TO YOU ALREADY I AK NOT SUPPORTING YOU.
Me: then as i havr said, that is a shame. I will pass your concerns to a member of senior leadership.

Typing examples takes up a LOAD of space! 🤣

Parents sound like a nightmare at your school, Maisy

I think I've only had one complaint about homework which was that it was too easy (tbf it was). Everyone seems happy with a weekly maths worksheet!

noble
They aren't from my current school.
They are from a school I left. Can you see why?!

I had one parent at my current school try that (but not as bad) and SLT backed me 100%, hauled parent in for a meeting and they were firmly told in no uncertain terms that if tbey speak to staff like that again they will only be allowed contact with school via one nominated senior member of staff.