Please could I have some advice about how to handle this situation

[SwanneeKazoo]

Dd is 17 and is in Yr 13. She is a bright girl, in that she gets As and Bs for her course work, but she completely tanked her AS and end of year exams in Yr 12 - she got two Us and an E. She did revise for them, but clearly not effectively. Her results were a big shock for her and for us and we had many discussions, rows and tears. She felt that we had been too hard on her (although she has very few limitations on what she does, she has a wide circle of friends and socialises and goes to gigs more or less whenever she wants). We agreed to change our behaviour, which effectively means that we must not mention studying, exams, university, the future or suggest that she might have the balance between her social life and school work wrong. She assured us she was perfectly aware that she needed to work hard and that she was doing a lot of work in her free periods at school and at home.

However, nothing seems to have changed. She has an important test the first day she goes back to school after half-term, which will determine one of her predicted grades, but the pattern of her days this holiday runs something like: wake up between 9 - 10am, watch youtube, text, instragram, whatsapp etc for another hour or so on her phone, get up, watch TV until hungry, make breakfast, get ready, back on the phone, do a bit of work (but not every day and she has a video playing on her phone at the same time and is also texting etc. This was something I asked her not to do when she was revising last year, but she said it helped her study), then back to watching youtube, instagramming etc etc full-time until dinner, then same again after dinner until bed, between 10 - 12. On school days she gets back, and straight into tv, youtube etc, with maybe an hours' work slotted in before bed.
Is this typical behaviour? The shock of her results seems to have worn off and she has gone back to her old ways. We have tried to talk with her a couple of times, but it results in rudeness, stroppiness, big sighs of "I know" and point blank no attempt to engage with what we are worried about. Her bedroom is an absolute tip, clothes everywhere but again, there is the stropping about if we mention it.
Reading this back she sounds like a complete spoilt brat with a couple of wet lettuces for parents, but she isn't like that really and we are not walk-overs either! However, we don't know what to do for best. Do we just let her carry on as she is and hope it turns out ok? How do we learn to turn a blind eye and not say anything? Do we need to be more strict? Has anyone been through this same situation and how did it turn out in the end?
Thank you for reading and any tips and advice would be very welcome.

Is she interested in her subjects? My DS1 wasn't and behaved like your daughter, DS2 was, and worked fairly solidly until 10pm most nights. The technology lark is just such a catastrophic waste of time.

Thank you all so much for taking the time to reply, I really appreciate your suggestions and we have a lot to think about. Oinkyoinky sympathies that you are going through the same pain and I hope you all manage to find an effective way to help before Yr 12.
CamperVamp I hear what you are saying but am not convinced that your approach would work with dd. DH and I are quite firm anyway and we're certainly not looking to be DD's friends. However, I think confiscating mobiles or turning off the router are just going to create more problems without solving anything. Point out to her that she appears not to be taking this incredibly simple step towards freeing herself! I'm not sure that you understand the mind of a procrastinator - if it was as simple as pointing things out, I wouldn't have needed to post. But I do appreciate your comments and they have given me a lot of food for thought.
Reetgood I have never heard of an unschedule or the pomodoro technique but they sound as if they would be effective so will find out more about them and I'll also look into the now habit.
DH and I talked last night and we will be having another discussion with dd and using a lot of the questions that LiveLifeWithPassion suggested.

Once again, thank you all for posting your comments and experiences, apologies if I have missed name-checking anyone but you have all given me a lot of things to think about.

Moominmammacat yes, she is interested in the subjects she is taking.

I definitely agree that it sounds like incentives will work better than punishments - and I guess that's why most adults go to work

It sounds like she is 'living in the moment'. What is she interested in? Would driving lessons/a ticket for something be a good motivator?

My sister and I were self motivated but my parents had a big shock with my brother as he most definitely wasn't! Punishments/consequences worked well when he was about 11-14 but beyond that it just caused massive arguments and incentives were more effective.

We're having similar problems with our Y11 DD. DH and I came to the conclusion that we've been too soft with her. She has being doing homework/revision but with YouTube on in the background. Constantly on her phone too.

After an incident at the weekend DH (who's normally the good guy) gave her a massive bollocking and we've laid down some new ground rules.

She does't have access to her laptop in her bedroom any more so any homework she has to do online has to be done downstairs. We've agreed that if she makes an effort, keep on top of homework and practices the piano every day she will earn being able to have it in her room for movie/tv catch up on Friday & Saturday nights.

We're working on reducing the amount of time she spends on her phone too.

But a 17 year old is completely different. I think you have to sit her down and reason with her that if she doesn't put any effort in she's going to fail to make the grade for university.

Agree with you WhatIHAveFound - we've been too soft on her too, but so has the school. Bright girl not fulfilling potential in a normal state school does not raise a warning for teachers, so there have never been any consequences from anyone. And we haven't been consistent enough. It's very hard to get the balance right. Emotionally girls have a way of getting to you - we get lots of "you're putting so much pressure on me" / "you're destroying my self-worth" / "you only love / value me if I do well at school". Actually no, we just want you to do the work the school is expecting of you, so you can have the job you want one day and fulfil your potential! But each time she launches into one of her tirades, I have a wobble and think - oooh maybe she's right?! But I know she's not. I know she's just cross at herself for not doing the work and I know she knows we love her no matter what.

I'm going against the grain here. IMO your daughter has got away for a Long time working ineffectively. And her attitude towards you when her as results came is was unacceptable. You kept to your agreement but she didn't. Unless she is still aging for the internet, phones etc is limit it/ take it away. I'd be very firm because your daughter seems very bright but has a poor attitude to learning. Admittedly I've not read every comment here but I'd focus towards What are her ambitions are and look at other avenues other than uni if she continues. Sorry to sound harsh. Good luck x

*paying, not aging!

A level teacher here. This won't end well unless you listen to what Camper has said. She's 17 and needs to be parented. You can approach this collaboratively by working out together how much phone time vs study time would be reasonable. Be in no doubt that having her phone with her while studying is not "relaxing" etc it's a major distraction.
She's giving you a great opportunity to teach her a valuable life skill.

@oinkyoinky when she says stuff like that, i’d hear it as externalising some internalised statements she’s telling herself. Eg ‘I’m putting too much pressure on myself, i’m worried people only value me when I do well at school’. Anything that sounds like the statements she’s using against herself will cause her to fly off the handle. There’s certain statements that still get under my skin even now, and it’s mostly because I’m already telling myself those kind of things only more meanly! You know she’s not correct but she’s probably in a right pickle emotionally. She’s trying to avoid the problem by shouting about it so you don’t go there. If you can, you have to not let that sound and fury distract you from your purpose and intention. With lots of love and sympathy of course, but you aren’t going to be blown off track so easily! I still feel like I haven’t unpicked everything underlying my behaviours: I’m a master procrastinator even now except I’ve developed some insight and better coping strategies.

I’m sure there were probably teachers who believed the same of me as @camcam1 . Their interventions compounded the guilt and I basically just disengaged. I wasn’t disruptive, I just wasn’t there a lot. I ended up with 2 As and a C. One of the A’s was General Studies, which saves my bacon in that my chosen university accepted it. I didn’t get my history a level because I didn’t hand the coursework in, and I could kick myself even now! But I was not an easy student to effectively manage as I was bright, put up a good front and didn’t really understand why I was behaving as I did, I just felt trapped in a behaviour loop. I can really stonewall, too. I’m sure there are teenagers an authoritarian approach would work with, but I was not one of them. Basically tricking me into thinking it was my idea, and allowing me to choose the solution (then backing up the solution when I wobbled) did sometimes work. But actually, I don’t think anyone around me had the emotional energy needed to consistently support me through it. So you do what you can, and it might just be daughters have to learn the hard way. Always worth trying though.

Another teacher here. It is indeed crunch time. This is where you 'earn' your money as parents. Since she's not quite an adult yet, you still have to be. You have to step up and press her. Just like when you made her eat veggies and wear her coat. It will be stressful for you too but there's no other way. Her success will be just as much your reward as hers.

There are loads of good ideas here to help your DD out of the crevasse. Many pupils arrive at exam points feeling like they have no idea how to revise. At this stage, until she's up and running, helping her schedule small sessions might work best. The ideas in Reetgood's post about finding the empty bits in a day might really appeal to your DD. The phone/internet is a powerful distraction. I find the best way for me to tame this is by using the timer feature on the phone. Then I know when I can use it again and for how long.

Genuine interest in her subjects is critical. Learning GCSE information to regurgitate is pretty straightforward but A Levels are about passion. Ideally, a history pupil is already devouring biographies of the players in the relevant era or a chemistry pupil spends free time tinkering with a chemistry set. How is she addressing this? Restarting her love/interest for her subjects might also be a way to help her back on track. GCSEs require facts but A Level answers need to go way past that to show profound study so any extra info she can pick up will work to her advantage.

I think this is the result of the social media addiction. Sometimes, it is really hard for the person to get out it herself. As a parent, you really need to help her. Why not find a relax time , calmly talk to her, that she can't spend so much time on social media. Let's not talk about the school work, but just how much time she can spend on her phone, youtube etc. Try to agree the amount of the time, if she can't understant it, you have to force it. Once she is not on those social media things, she will start to think about her work.

I think as a parent, we have to let our children to gradually become independant, but it might be a disaster if you just let it go without help them to establish a good living habbit.

For example, do you let your DD do a share of house work every day, do you encourage her to earn the pocket money herself? I would suggest you switch her phone to a good pay as your go account, and ask her to fund it herself.

I have stopped my DS1(17y) pocket money a couple of years ago, he earns money from me by doing some work. He also did a summer job, he felt hard, but earned a few hundred pounds. He doesn't work during term time, but some of his classmates works during term time evening. He pays his own mobile phone usage and the other social expense.He does some house work, like washing his own clothes, empty diswasher etc, cook breakfast & lunch for everyone during half term.I see this is a important step, otherwise, how can you not worry once they leave for University?

Ds2 is yr11. I have spent this morning with him putting together a basic revision timetable.
We set the week to half hour intervals from 0800 to 2230. Using a key we blocked out school time, meal times and fixed activities. We have then added time for homework and a seperate allocation for revision which have been allocated as subject or choice.
He can see blocks of colour and that he has more spare time than work time which seems to have motivated him as he knows it's not all work (at the moment - it will be revisited at Christmas ).
We've also included a no tech slot before bed.

Your DD needs you to turn off the router. It’s all very well saying ‘oh but she won’t have that if she gets to uni’ but at the moment she won’t get to uni. Self-regulation of internet use which is designed to be bloody addictive is incredibly difficult and expecting her to learn this, and her A-level stuff, and all the ‘next steps’ stuff while negotiating the usual teen social angst is obviously not working. I expect she knows deep down she needs that help but can’t ask for it because she can’t give it up voluntarily.

You've agreed to change your behavior and never mention exams etc. She has not changed he's her behaviour.
Why on earth would you agree to this? It would be funny if it wasn't so utterly bonkers.
She's failed. But you've had to change. 😂

:D who are these teenagers who don't know how to turn the router back on? You can turn it off, but she can easily turn it back on. Or use mobile data.

But adding supports to help limit use of the internet is a great idea. I use a program called Freedom which you can specify to block certain sites for a certain amount of time. I have turned it off today, hence me being on here loads....

Turn off the router or change the password or block some sites or make her leave her phone downstairs when she works or whatever to restrict her access to the internet at certain times. 🙄

I also want to know who all these compliant teens are, who respond really well to just being told that they must focus on their work because their parents said so. Perhaps I was a particularly obstreperous and independent teen, but if I recall correctly that's not how it tended to work.....

I know I'm not the op's daughter, but in the grip of anxiety I could make anything a procrastination. We didn't have mobile phones with internet, so I read a book, stared into space, needed to go for a walk, made schedules, did 'busy work' that wasn't actually work, watch crap tv, listen to the radio, cooked meals...anything would serve. The problem wasn't whatever I was using for procrastination (although teh internets is the ultimate dark playground). If you don't address the root cause, you can take away the distraction and another one will magically take its place.

If you force a teen to comply through authority, you're basically just activating the Panic Monster and not equipping them to manage themselves better in the future, either.

This is nicely explained in this blogpost (which may appeal to some teens) waitbutwhy.com/2013/10/why-procrastinators-procrastinate.html

This is all very difficult with a 17 year old. My DDs were fab at leaving phones/laptops downstairs at night up until the end of year 11 when they had finished their GCSEs.

Now they're in Year 12 I've backed off as I felt it was treating them like little kids, and to be fair none of their friends had a no tech rule in year 11 let alone year 12.

One of them has been fine self regulating, with a mixture of screen time, studying and lots of sleep. The other is addicted to her screens at the expense of her studies and sleep. I'll be amazed if she's not asked to repeat year 12.

Sorry not much help but I know exactly how you feel.

So teens not paying their own contracts have big data packages?

And if you don’t know how to password your broadband to restrict it to certain devices, learn. Or unplug and seize router, of course.

Ok, I understand that some are frozen with panic and pressure. But some are just unable to control themselves wrt social media. It is like an addiction. They actually need help.

Repeating Yr 12 is one thing. Does she know you cannot repeat Yr 13?

"So teens not paying their own contracts have big data packages?"

Yes they do. Every teen I know does.

Oh, OK.

All Dc’s friends seem to manage on low data. They all rely on WiFi except when out and about.

My eldest is almost 17.

I wonder if our kids are generally spoilt. Their phones etc. The way they can curate fantasy images of themselves within social media. The kids in my Dc circle who get into most ‘pickles’ with drugs, drink etc are the ones with most money.

We have to ask ourselves quite rigorously where is the point at which our generosity with goods or boundaries does more harm than good.

I probably sound like a right gradgrind. Actually nothing could be further from the truth. But I do think 24 hour access to the world via social media is like crack and young people need a bit of tough love to protect themselves from it.

Twenty years ago, while I didn’t have any data I paid for my mobile with my part time wages. I took home between £25-50 from my part time job a week, plus tips age 17. I had plenty of disposable income and never got into any ‘pickles’. I was just determinedly, non disruptively, not doing what I needed to do....

I don’t think it makes kids spoilt to have to negotiate social media nonsense on top of all the other challenges of young adulthood. It is like crack, but the ummm crack is out of the bag, so to speak? It’s not going back in. We have to learn how to manage it. If I as a 37 year old can easily figure out how to access data or bypass WiFi security, a teenager absolutely can. That’s why they have to choose to do it - or at least be in some form of agreement at some point previously.

Personally I pay £12 a month 4gb data, I don’t consider it that unusual to have a fair amount of data.

Maybe it’s just my personality/ the type of teen I was but someone saying no I’m unplugging the router would send me into a quest for data. Someone saying to me ‘you clearly need help to focus, what are some things that would help you?’ Would lead me to volunteer maybe turning router off for a couple of hours would help. Every parent knows their teen best of course.

Your Dd seem very much like mine a year ago, addicted to her phone and games, not able to regulate herself.

I think the question whether to stand back and watch in slow motion your 'adult' Ddd crashing out of education because she is immature and irresponsible, or to treat yourself as as a parent that is going to do what they can to maximise your child's life chances is basically down to your own values. Are you comfortable watching the car crash? If not, if you feel you need to act like a parent, it probably means you know that your Dd is still a child, no matter what the numbers are.

Some people up the thread mentioning anxiety and denial are spot on.

That what was going on with my Dd - feeling of helplessness, doom and "escapism" in her own words. Your Dd knows that with her AS results, her predicted grades will not get her into uni and the whole year 13 is a slow motion car crash. She is anxious, upset and feels helpless. She probably also has some feelings about dissapointing you. My Dd felt like a 'faillue', so "there was no point to try further".

Talk about her feelings, have a caddle, let her drop her pretences, treat her like a child and talk about a real fresh start and a second chance.

Could you try to take her out of Y13 and find a way to go back to Y12, while you still can. It will be almost impossible to repeat A levels after Y13 and when she turns 19. Call all colleges within 10 miles.

It will provide a real fresh start, a real second chance, and, importantly enable to establish a new good study routine as a preparation to uni: no mobile, no wifi, no games while she is working. When work is done she can play. Estimate how much work exactly shee needs every day in each subject, plan her homework with her. Treat it as coaching, development of good independent learning habits, so when she goes to uni, she will have those good study skills.

That worked very well for my Dd, she is very motivated now, likes to say that she is "a good student", she does loads of homework and , yes, I watch over her shoulder from time to time, I am the judge of when she can have the computer .

You know yourself and your Dd best, so you might not be as directive, but basically listen to your own intuition, which clearly tells you to do something.