Secondary School that doesn't set: any experience?

[Tomatillo]

I was at an open day for our catchment secondary this week and was surprised to find out that they have just moved to a system where there is no setting at all for any subject in any year. Has anyone had experience of this? Does it work, especially for the brightest?

The teacher who is leading this at the school said that the research showed that only the top 10% benefitted from setting and that removing setting was neutral for the middle band and beneficial for the bottom half. They also talked about the benefits for self-esteem, behaviour and teacher expectations. Assuming this is all correct (I've not yet looked it up in detail) then I can completely see why a comprehensive school (which this is) would want to do this for the benefit of everyone. The difficulty is that we're pretty sure that DD is well within the top 10% for the core academic subjects. Whilst I appreciate that things can change at secondary, her primary have made it very clear that they consider her to be exceptionally able. My own schooling was very heavily set, with sets for almost everything and quite finely graded with 12 levels for maths. This meant that we progressed very fast and I've always thought that helped me go from my very average comp to a 1st at Cambridge. I'm pretty concerned that she'll be disadvantaged if she goes to this school. I asked the teacher about the top students and they essentially said that there were issues for the top group and they appreciated our concerns.

Does anyone have any experience of this? At the moment we are feeling that it would be the wrong decision for her.

Thanks!

Well, that's claptrap. For a start there aren't any "B"s or otherwise now. And there certainly isn't a binary divide.

From my perspective comprehensive schools throw most resources at the less able in order to bring them up over the line.

And what on earth are the grooming, encouragement and opportunities of which you speak?!

My kids have never had any extra support given to them - ever! Are they the ignored top end of middle?

I see plenty of opportunities for the gifted and talented - every week in the school newsletter we see the different events and courses they are invited to and the photos with smiling faces at the events.

The clever ones are groomed, encouraged and given lots of opportunities

That is so absolutely untrue, its not even in the right ballpark!
@JustHope, there was a poster upthread (it may have been you) who described boredom and repetition of things your DS could easily do as a result of being in the wrong set, all the while feeling slightly depressed combined with sheer frustration that time that could be spent learning something useful is being wasted.
I think that was you. But my Ds feels exactly the same way. He believes his teacher finds him a nuisance because he can do the work of the set very easily. he has been learning to manage the boredom for years. He knows the teacher isn't setting work for people like him and he knows the teacher doesn't want to set work for the likes pf him.

The only difference? DS is in the top set and finds the work far, far too easy. So, he's been putting up with this for years. Its got so bad, that he has enrolled himself in a GCSE enrichment course that the school have no knowledge of, and he goes there in his own time, then does the homework without telling anyone.

Only this morning he was remembering how last year, when he achieved something that is quite hard to achieve, the form teacher was given the job of distributing the certificate. No fuss, no ceremony, just here's your bit of paper, no go and sit back down at your desk. Then five minutes later, she made an announcement to the class that there was to be a series of awards evening dedicated to those who had done well at sports, music and art. If you are academically good, they don't want to even notice..

That's got to be a rare (and very sad) case mmzz - I do think it depends on school. My DD was the first person to get into Oxbridge from her school/ first person to get even one (let alone 4) A at A level and they shouted from the rooftops about her achievements. She, and the other students who got an A in a GCSE or 5 or more As were all specifically mentioned on the website and really praised for their achievements, and those on track for As and A*s were put in a "golden group" from year 9-11 which meant they had sessions on dealing with stress, and throughout sixth form a "Russell room" was created for those applying to Russell group unis. They were given much more help with their uni application than a lot of DD's friends who were just aiming for ordinary universities or going into apprenticeships or the normal working world. So while they weren't the focus of many of the lessons (because they didn't need to be), they were given plenty of other support and praise.

Rose That is definitely the case at our leafy comp - the oxbridge and medical candidates get lots of support and encouragement and it is shouted from the rooftops through the newsletter and Twitter!

@Orangeplastic and @Rose0 that's really good. Who knows, maybe Ds's (leafy comprehensive, outstanding) school does the same and i haven't heard about it as I haven't had a child go through the sixth form. All i know is what happens up to the Christmas term in year 11, and there's no sign of it so far.

Don't get me wrong - there are awards for academic attainment, but they go to someone in the middle of the top set, not the highest achievers. Last year, the "best in school" maths award went to someone who got 25% less than DS on the exams.

Not at ds's comp. Not only did he receive no acknowledgement of his A Level results (same as your dd's RoseO ), he didn't receive an invitation to the Celebrating Success results evening .

Mind you, when the parents' information evening about universities featured the university coordinator standing up and telling everyone that The University of the South West is exactly the same as Oxbridge. it said a lot about their views.

I can honestly say that ds received a big fat zero of support. Russell Room?! Golden group?! In a way that is good encouragement, but could backfire if those pupils feel that there are a whole pile of expectations on their shoulders.

Mmzz what was the award for? According to my dcs some kids score very highly without working very had at all - I wouldn’t reward kids for having natural talent - better to reward hard word and all abilities should be working hard.

It was a merit on the UKMT pink kangaroo (maths). He did have to work for it because the questions are quite different from anything in the GCSE. It needs some past paper practice.
First he got a gold certificate and that's what the form teacher passed out in form time. Then he got through to the pink kangaroo and got a merit which meant he was in the top 25% of the 6000 or so who do the merit
So, DS came somewhere in the top 2000 out of 1.2 million students in last years years 10 and 11. This time the maths teacher passed over the certificate himself but only when he was clearing out of his desk for the summer holidays. It was the day before the end of term, and he stopped DS in the corridor and gave it to him there.

You can just feel how warmly the school greets academic achievement beyond the league table stuff, can't you?

mmzz Dc1 is in the same situation except that he is now very resentful and is avoiding engaging with anything school related. He does the minimum he is supposed to do. And he has lost his love of learning.

We haven't had the stuff with the award. Butbthen awards he has received have been so generic and for so surprising reaaons that he doesn't take any notice of them anymore. Because they never feel they are 'real' rewards for making a real difference.

@Orangeplastic I agree about rewarding hard work, not coasting but see my earlier post about not being given the chance to work hard because the teacher won't set extension work... So, DS has no opportunity to work hard in lessons, and therefore he has no chance of doing something that is considered admirable.

We battled through the loss of love of learnign stuff too. I asked the maths teacher to help, even if it was just a 5 minute chat with DS. Basically anything. he did nothing.

However, the GCSE enrichment seems to be sorting that out. After the first session, DS came away smiling. As we travelled home, he told me that it was strange because he's not used to being in a room with a teacher who thinks that DS being able to understand stuff quickly is a good thing.

I don't know how many other ways to put this, @Justhope 's post really hit a nerve because it added insult to injury.

mmzz I really feel for your son. It's cruel to treat a child that way. I wish him all the best.

@EmpressoftheMundane thank you. It is really nice of you to care.

I'm desperate to get DS into another school for A levels, because I don't think they are all like this. The school, on the other hand, don't seem to have even considered that DS will leave next year. There's an assumption that, of course he'll want to stay on for more of the same at A level.

Do you have other options?

Not for GCSE, but there are other places to do A levels. Maybe a selective school??

DH and I are trying to make a rational decision about how to advise DS. The current school is good, its just the one department that is awful. Even then I suspect, some parents are very happy with it. (Although I know the HoD's arrogance and intransigence has wound up some other families too)

I'd be planning my DS's escape now and using that as a motivator for him to do his utmost at GCSEs.

Its true, the moment that they can break free is coming up. Its all about doign your best so you keep your options open. (That's what I have been sayign to DS1 so much recently that I'm getting sick of the sound of my voice).
Its hard to teach 15 year olds to understand what an opportunity this is, so that they want to try their best but without stressing them out about what if they don't do as well as they should?

I think it's bad for a child to never come across a piece of work that they struggle with - it's an important to learn the skill of perseverance. Sometimes kids who have breezed through everything they've done at school can be floored the first time they can't do something immediately without effort - it really affects their confidence. Mmzz does your ds do anything he finds difficult?

Mmzz your story certainly is sad - I totally understand why they wouldn't want to constantly praise, but he definitely deserves some recognition of what he's done. That's a brilliant achievement.

And to the poster questioning pressure - the "Russell Room" was an optional scheme (for those who planned on applying to Russell Group/ top 30 universities) and the "golden group" at GCSE consisted of sessions to reduce stress - yoga and chocolate seemed to feature from what I can tell, and lots of "make sure you're not doing too much revision and taking plenty of breaks".
If one group lost out at the school it probably was the mid-achievers - the kids with straight Bs and Cs, though I believe some booster sessions were allocated exclusively for them so they may offer more than I know about.

DS does not find English easy, especially EngliSh literature. He's actually expected to get an 8 in it but tbh it will be a big achievement if he doe. Partly he finds the touchy feely nature of it difficult but also DS has a dyslexia type SEN that makes writing difficult so he has to dig deep to overcome that.

*@mmzz
I apologise that my post hit a nerve, I was simply expressing feelings based on current experience and frustrations about at DS’s school. It sounds like neither of us are happy with our situation. All I hear about at DS’s school is resources and extras to boost the best and brightest and yes I am a bit miffed with this.

piggy late back but yes, that's the type of thing I mean by natural sets at y10. However I wasn't really thinking of none academic separation, but in regards to the setting in selectives where all dc are academic, but generally pick their stronger subjects and drop the weaker areas.

multi I see what you mean, and I'm not suggesting that independents are all more innovative than state schools. But given that the more selective schools are in pursuit of top grades you'd think even the most antiquated slt would be keen to try anything that bumped a B to an A, or an A to an A*.

I personally suspect that the reason most selective privates set for at least maths is down to the fact that most people seem to acknowledge ma holds back the highest achievers. Which not only means the parents of such dc are unlikely to pay for their child to boost everyone else, I don't see any keeping a reputation for top results if their a* and 9 grades don't materialise every year.

mmzz think I recognise you from other threads, so all I'll say is that I hope it either improves for him or at least that this year quickly passes for him. Also fully agree re the frustration and the idea that g&t kids always get support.

lady just to defend myself on my post , I do know there aren't Bs any more. I am talking historically.

The grooming I refer to is in options choices : extensive encouragement of the more able to their subject (not to do with VA but to make teaching easier and to preserve their status as an elite subject) and active - I really do mean active- discouragement of the average to less able. As an English teacher who teaches all comers, I find it a bit deplorable.

This was related only to the 'natural selection comments and not to anything else schools might or might not do to support the most able. because once our MFL dept. have them , they don't exactly nourish a lifelong love of language learning in them !

I still don't agree that most of the attention is given to the less able, though.